§ MR. W. E. FORSTERasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he can inform the House what steps Her Majesty's Government will take to prevent cruel injustice in Egypt, and especially cruelty in Egyptian prisons and the imprisonment of innocent people, while Her Majesty's troops kept the Egyptian Government in power?
§ MR. HEALYBefore the Prime Minister answers that Question, I wish to ask him whether it is a fact that the alleged cruel injustice rests solely on the statements of Mr. Clifford Lloyd? I wish to point out that these alleged cruelties must be things not unknown to Mr. Clifford Lloyd from his experience of Ireland, where many persons were imprisoned without trial, and where Her Majesty's troops enabled Mr. Clifford Lloyd to carry on a system by which men were imprisoned without any charges having been made against them.
MR. GLADSTONEI do not think I should advance the knowledge we possess with regard to this question by mixing with it either any reference to Irish transactions, or, indeed, any reference to Mr. Clifford Lloyd. The Question does not refer to Mr. Clifford Lloyd; and I think in my answer I had better not bring in the controversies with which that gentleman's name has, unfortunately, been connected in Egypt. My right hon. Friend is quite aware that he must be content with a summary answer to the important point he has put. At the close of his Question he refers to the presence of Her Majesty's troops in Egypt, and we entirely agree with him in what he appears to suggest —namely, that the effect of a military occupation is to impose upon us a very heavy responsibility with regard to Egypt. What I have to say is that really the substance of the description of what we shall do to prevent cruel injustice in Egypt is that we shall continue to do what we have been doing. [Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Oh, oh!] I am very sorry to hear that an hon. Gentleman who is totally ignorant of the question meets my declaration with marks of 1794 mockery. If he will permit me, I will continue what I have got to say—that we shall continue to do what we have been doing, and that we have no reason to be dissatisfied up to the present time with these results. The information conveyed to us, upon what we think very responsible and most sufficient authority, is that very great and beneficial changes have been made in the management of Egyptian prisons, and great improvements introduced, although, undoubtedly, they are, as everyone would expect, still far behind the practice and condition of prisons in civilized countries in the West. [Mr. HEALY: No, no!] With regard to unjust imprisonment and oppressive imprisonment, this great difference has been introduced into Egypt—that is, that no such imprisonment can take place, and no such oppression can be practised, without its constituting a legal offence, liable to prosecution before the Courts. Beyond this, I have to say two things. First of all, there is an important discussion now going on, and a scheme in preparation, with respect to the action of the police in Egypt, upon which we shall shortly be in communication with the Egyptian Government. Further, my noble Friend (Earl Granville) informs me, that as we have had occasion to refer to Sir Evelyn Baring recently upon the general progress made in the matter of reform in Egypt since our occupation, he hopes to be able to communicate in a short time some information rather more detailed than what I have now given to the House.
§ MR. CHAPLINWith reference to the reply of the Prime Minister, I wish to ask whether Her Majesty's Government consider that the steps they are now taking are adequate and effectual for preventing this cruel injustice in Egypt?
MR. GLADSTONEI thought I had stated that we thought, with respect to the condition of the prisons, which was the question immediately put forward by my right hon. Friend, that the Reports show that the changes which have been effected, considering the time, and considering the difficulties, were quite as much, or even beyond, what could reasonably be expected; and as to the amount of practical good that has been effected, speaking generally, the impression made upon our mind is that the 1795 progress of these reforms has been far from unsatisfactory.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERPerhaps my right hon. Friend will allow me to ask him whether the Government will continue to take care that the reforms which they have introduced shall be carried out under the supervision of some Englishman, and not left entirely to Native officials?
§ MR. T. D. SULLIVANMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, under the present state of Egyptian law, it is possible to imprison 1,000 men for a considerable length of time without trial, as was the case in Ireland under the right hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster)?
MR. GLADSTONEI have stated that false imprisonment or oppressive treatment is now a criminal offence in Egypt, and may, like other criminal offences, be brought before the Courts. With respect to the Question of my right hon. Friend, I think I can give no answer to it, which is really more effective than the statement that we recognize our responsibility in the matter; and that our duty is, therefore, to promote the adoption in Egypt of those measures which, on the whole, we think best calculated to attain the end we have in view. Of course, we must look, in a material degree, to the assistance which Englishmen and the Natives of European countries are peculiarly competent to render; but it would not be right for me to lay down any general rule, which would tend very much to discourage all practical improvements among the Egyptians themselves.
MR. GORSTI should like to ask whether, when the Prime Minister says the Government is sensible of its responsibility, he includes the duty of using their influence to secure that high officials, such as Zebehr Pasha, who were guilty of cruelty, are adequately punished?
MR. GLADSTONEI do not see how that can be done; but, at the same time, if the hon. and learned Member has in view any particular case of cruelty, I should be much obliged to him if he will kindly state the particulars of the case to us, so that we may be able to give him a more direct answer.
§ MR. CHAPLINI am very sorry to be obliged to press the right hon. Gentleman; but what the House of Com- 1796 mons wants to know is, whether the Prime Minister will hold out any hope to Parliament that the Government will take steps more effectual than those they have taken up to the present for the prevention of the cruelties which have been described by Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and which, I undertake to say, have sent a thrill of horror through the country?
MR. GLADSTONEI think the hon. Gentleman will do well to withhold his judgment a little until he is in possession of fuller information on this subject. What I have to say is, that we shall persevere in the course which we have already pursued; and I believe that the results of that course have been quite as favourable — indeed, in the opinion of competent judges, more favourable—than, in all the difficulties of the case, we had reason to expect they would be.
§ MR. CHAPLINIn consequence of the extremely unsatisfactory reply of the right hon. Gentleman, I shall take the earliest opportunity I can obtain to call attention to the horrible cruelties which are now being practised in Egypt under the responsibility of the English Government, as described by Mr. Clifford Lloyd. The accuracy of that gentleman's account not having been impugned, I shall move a Resolution on, the subject.
§ MR. HEALYgave Notice that when the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire moved his Resolution on this subject he would call attention to the cruelties committed in Ireland by Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and would ask whether a person guilty of such cruelties as he had committed in Ireland was not totally unworthy of credence?