HC Deb 28 February 1884 vol 285 cc94-106
MR. CHAPLIN

asked the Prime Minister, Whether he could give the House any information as to the date at which the Government intended to make progress with the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Amendment Bill, which had been sent down from the House of Lords?

MR. GLADSTONE

, in reply, said, he hoped to make arrangements with regard to the Bill mentioned by the hon. Member, as soon as the Representation of the People Bill had been introduced. With that object, he would now, therefore, move the postponement of the Orders of the Day in accordance with the Notice on the Paper.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Orders of the Day subsequent to the Order for the Committee on Mr. Speaker's Retirement (Queen's Answer to Address) he postponed until after the Notice of Motion for leave to introduce the Representation of the People Bill."—(Mr. Gladstone.)

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

I hope, Sir, that before the Orders of the Day are postponed, we may have some statement from the right hon. Gentleman as to when Her Majesty's Government intend to proceed with the Bill to which my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) has referred—a Bill concerning which there is a very great feeling in the country; and, also, when we shall be called upon to vote the Supplementary Estimates for the Army and Navy, which is also a matter which engages the attention of the House and the country. Respecting it, the answer given yesterday was of a very cursory nature.

MR. GLADSTONE

I thought I had answered the first Question already, when I said that, immediately after we have obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws relating to the Representation of the People, I shall propose to make arrangements for taking the first stages, or, at any rate, a stage, of the Bill which has come down from the House of Lords in reference to the contagious diseases of animals. With regard to the expenses incurred in Egypt, I am not sure whether my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War is in a position to state what the Estimate will be; but we shall make as early an arrangement for that purpose as is in our power. That is the course which we propose to take, and immediately after this Bill has been introduced we shall make the best arrangements in our power with regard to the other Business of the House.

MR. RAIKES

said, that, before they could accept this matter as decided, he wished to call attention to the imperfect nature of the answers of the Prime Minister to the two Questions which had been put to him by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote). The answer which the right hon. Gentleman had given with regard to the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill really amounted to no answer at all, because the Prime Minister was now in a position, just as much as he would be after he had obtained leave to bring in his Bill, to make any arrangement he thought proper in regard to this measure. But there was a matter which was much more important to the House, which occupied its attention at the present moment almost exclusively, and that was the question of the Vote of Credit. He was very much surprised to see that Supply was not upon the Paper to-day. Considering the sudden emergency which had recently arisen in the Public Service, and the anxious attention which the country was devoting to the affairs on the shores of the Red Sea, it seemed remarkable that the Government should, on the present occasion, think it suitable or proper to distract the public mind from its legitimate and natural preoccupation, by endeavouring to bring before the House questions of organic change which, if they were taken up by the country with that interest which generally attached to them, would serve as a cover to the shortcomings of Her Majesty's Government. He thought that, in these circumstances, it would not be becoming if some protest were not made against this transparent effort to mystify the country. They had on the Paper that day four or five measures of very considerable importance, two of which had already been postponed to give an opportunity for this Motion being made. He referred to the Merchant Shipping Bill and to the Police Bill. They had also upon the Paper another measure which the Government had professed great anxiety to push forward—the Hours of Polling at Elections Bill. It was for the Government to explain why they had changed their front. The Prime Minister had said that only a few words of explanation would be required on introducing the Representation of the People Bill. [Mr. GLADSTONE: I never said so.] He was speaking within the recollection of the House as to the words used by the right hon. Gentleman when he first referred to the matter, and he must say that that was the view that had been taken of the right hon. Gentleman's statement by hon. Members sitting on the Opposition side of the House. It was hardly likely that the House would acquiesce, as a matter of course, in this proposal, and it would have been a dereliction of duty on his part if he had allowed the matter to pass without drawing attention to the subject.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, he considered that the House was entitled to some answer from the Prime Minister. The House ought to have some explanation as to how far the Government were entitled to carry on this war in Egypt, and to continue their work of slaughter in the Soudan, without appealing to the House for funds. They were not to be put off by pretexts of legislation which were not required by the country. They were not to be bamboozled by this Reform Bill, in order to enable the Government, at a period of the night when no one was in the House, to smuggle through their Supplementary Estimates—enormous Estimates, which were opposed to all the Government's professions of peace, retrenchment, and reform. He would move that the debate be adjourned, in order to give the Prime Minister an opportunity of replying to the questions that had been put to him.

MR. WARTON

in seconding the Motion, said, the House had frequently been told by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the law required that certain Estimates must be passed by a certain day; and, by attempting to introduce this Bill so early in the Session, the Prime Minister was endeavouring to fill up the time of that House, so as to prevent the adequate discussion of the Estimates before the day came round when it was imperative that they should be passed. The Government were false to all their professions of economy, and were seeking to deprive the House of every opportunity of discussing their expenditure. He considered that the Bill which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce was brought forward simply in the interests of the Liberal Party.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Sir H. Drummond Wolff.)

SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH

I understand that the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) has only moved the adjournment of the debate in order to afford the Prime Minister an opportunity of more fully answering the questions which were put to him by the right hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote). [Mr. GLADSTONE: I have answered them.] The right hon. Gentleman says that he has answered them; but I venture to say that the right hon. Gentleman has given no reply whatever to those questions. What the right hon. Gentleman said, in effect, was this— I propose this evening to ask the House for leave to introduce a Bill dealing with the representation of the people of this country, and when the House has come to a decision that the Bill may he introduced, then I will tell you what course I will take with regard to the rest of the Business before the House. But what is the rest of the Business before the House? In the first place, there is the Bill which is considered by the whole of the agricultural community of this country to be a most important and most urgent matter. The right hon. Gentleman might just as well tell us now as to-morrow, or on Monday, or on any other day, when it is intended to proceed with that Bill; but he will tell us nothing until the House gives him leave to introduce his Reform Bill. There is also a matter of even greater moment than the Representation of the People Bill, and that is the question of the policy of Her Majesty's Government in the Soudan and in Egypt, in respect of which they vouchsafe us no information whatever. It may very well be that Her Majesty's Government do well to be reticent in reference to their intended action in the Soudan and in Egypt, but we have a right to demand a certain amount of information on the subject, and also that the Estimates shall be considered on the earliest day possible, in order that the House may have an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon the policy which Her Majesty's Government has pursued in the countries in question. To-morrow is the day ordinarily fixed for the consideration of Supply. Do we not remember the outrageous manner in which no small portion of Supply was last year hurried through the House without due examination and discussion? Are not Her Majesty's Government bound to take the earliest opportunities for submitting to this House the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, if the Army and Navy Estimates are not ready for consideration? The Civil Service Supplementary Estimates were circulated this morning. Will Her Majesty's Government tell us whether they propose to set up effective Supply to-morrow or not? If the Government attempt to conceal their intentions as to the arrangement of the Business of the House of Commons, they will not be doing their best to facilitate the consideration of the programme they have laid before Parliament; but if they really desire, as I have no doubt they do, to make progress with that Business, they ought to afford us the opportunities which we have a right to demand for the discussion of those matters which appear to us to be of primary importance. Thus, and thus alone, can they hope to facilitate the progress of that Bill which has absolutely passed from the thoughts of the country, under the influence of the events which have occurred during the last four months.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

I am not quite sure, Sir, whether the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), or the speeches of the hon. Members who preceded him, have entirely complied with that Rule of the House which lays it down that the discussions on Motions for the Adjournment of the Debate should be strictly confined to the matter of the question before the House. At all events, I think it would be running considerable risk if I were to attempt to enter into a discussion upon the subjects that have been raised. I will endeavour, however, to put a stop, as soon as possible, to this discussion, by giving, as well as I am able, the information which some hon. Gentlemen on the other side are anxious to obtain. With reference to the question which the right hon. Gentleman has just put, I may say that the Civil Service Estimates have been put down, and may possibly be considered in Committee of Supply to-morrow. With regard to the question as to the time at which the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill will be taken, I think the demand of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is not an unreasonable one. That Bill has only just come down from the House of Lords, and the Government, as we have already stated, are most anxious to make progress with it at the earliest possible moment. But although it is not, as we have been reminded, the only important Business before the House, the mode of dealing with that Bill, and the order in which it should stand in relation to the rest of the important Business before the House, is a subject which must be considered by the Prime Minister, in concert with his Colleagues, before a definite undertaking can be given as to the progress of its future stages; and certainly one important item in the consideration is whether the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister will obtain leave to introduce the Representation of the People Bill. As to the remaining point on which anxiety has been expressed, the time when the Supplementary Estimates are to be considered, it would, no doubt, be extremely convenient for the Government if they could be considered on the earliest possible day; but the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote), on Monday, when there was some discussion upon the subject, stated, with perfect accuracy and fairness, that the proper time for discussing the policy of the Government in Egypt and the Soudan will be when those Estimates are laid before the House. If the House is asked to vote the Supplementary Estimates on a very early day, it is probable that we shall not be able to give to the House as full information respecting our policy as we should desire to give. The discussion would, therefore, be extremely imperfect and comparatively useless. Under these circumstances, I think the right hon. Gentleman, who acquiesced in the fairness of the demands of the Government not to give information which, in their opinion, might be prejudicial to the Public Service, will probably desire that the discussion of those Estimates should be postponed to such a time—and I hope it will be a short time—as will enable the Government to give a full explanation and full information to the House. That is all we desire as far as we are concerned.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

There is only one part of the speech of the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Hartington) to which I desire to refer. He says, with perfect accuracy, that I acknowledged, on Monday night, it would be hard to press the Government for information with regard to military proceedings which it would not be proper to discuss. At the same time, I was careful to say that I was anxious to be furnished, as early as possible, with an opportunity of discussing the policy of the Government, which I thought they might be able to explain, although they might be debarred from giving information as to military manœuvres.

MR. CHAPLIN

said, he would not follow the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Hartington) in that part of his speech which, on the second day of the new Speaker's occupancy of the Chair, lectured the Speaker for not interfering with the observations of hon. Members. The noble Marquess had explained that Her Majesty's Government were not yet in a position to explain the policy of the Government in Egypt. He (Sir. Chaplin) never recollected when Her Majesty's Government could explain their policy on any question. Either it was too early, or too late, was the inevitable answer, whenever the Opposition asked for information. He did not think the answer of the noble Marquess was at all a sufficient answer. It amounted to this—that, as soon as the permission of the House had been given to the introduction of the Representation of the People Bill, the Government would be prepared to make some arrangement with regard to the first stage of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill. But the first stage was merely the first reading, and what the House wanted to know was, whether the Representation of the People Bill would have to be read a second time before the second reading of the latter Bill? [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] Whether the Committee stage would be postponed until after the Committee stage of the former Bill, whether the two measures would be taken pari passu, or what was to be the course of proceeding, if the House was not fully informed on this matter, the conduct of the Government would only tend still further to delay Public Business, because they would not rest satisfied until they had received an assurance that the latter measure, which was exciting such interest throughout the agricultural world, would be speedily pro- ceeded with, and pressed to a conclusion, no matter what might be the fate of the Bill for the Representation of the People, about which he had very little anxiety, and in regard to which he thought there was very little chance of its passing into law.

SIR WILLIAM HART DYKE

said, he had no doubt that hon. Members on that side of the House who took part in that discussion would be told that they were obstructing. ["Hear, hear!"] Whilst welcoming that cheer most heartily, he would further urge that if those who were deeply pledged to support the chief industry in this country, which was now suffering most grievously, and almost approaching disaster from short prices, over taxation, and the importation of foreign diseases—if those hon. Members who knew these things, and who had pledged themselves to their constituents again and again to support their just claims, were to be accused of Obstruction for rising in their places and uttering a protest, he was at that moment proud of the name of Obstructionist. He thought they had a right to demand how long a time was likely to elapse before the Bill touching the importation of foreign disease into this country was introduced, and how long the Representation of the People Bill would stand in the way of the relief of the agriculturist. He knew that hon. Members opposite were impatient at this interruption. They were anxious to get to the Representation of the People Bill, and he did not wonder at that, because they were in a grievous strait, and anybody who had six months' experience of electioneering knew that what was wanted was something to distract the minds of the people of this country. The Government wanted to create a little diversion, and thought that their best course was to bring forward some dazzling scheme of Reform, and to get a great speech from the Prime Minister; but the country was clamouring for reform, and what it would insist upon would be a reform of the Ministerial policy of foreign affairs.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, that in the course which he was about to take he should not be open to the charge of obstructing the Business of the House, because he rose for the purpose of exercising whatever small amount of influence he might have over the hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), and of endeavouring to persuade him to withdraw his Motion. He felt sure that the House wished to begin the discussion on Reform with as much calmness as possible, and he therefore hoped that the House would allow the Motion for Adjournment to be withdrawn. But, in order to anticipate any accusation of Obstruction that might be flung at hon. Members on his side of the House, he would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to try and fancy themselves on the other side of the House, to place themselves by some prodigious stretch of their imagination in the place of the Opposition, and he would ask the Prime Minister for one moment to imagine himself the Leader of the Opposition. Hon. Gentlemen opposite having done so, and placed themselves in the position which he had described, what, he asked, would have been their conduct if, our domestic and foreign affairs being in the state which they now were in, a Tory Government had proposed to proceed with organic legislation? If the Prime Minister wished to know whether the interest felt by the country in the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman was about to bring forward that evening was absorbing, he had only to look upon the Benches behind him. He ventured to say that, in the course of the Primo Minister's long Parliamentary career, there had never been so poor an array of supporters behind him on any occasion when legislation of grave importance was about to be introduced. What had the Government done with the Liberal Party, and why was not that Party fully represented that evening, in order to prove the interest which the country was supposed to take in Parliamentary Reform? ["Question!"] To pass to the more immediate matter before the House, he would repeat that which was urged by the Opposition—namely, that it was unconstitutional for Her Majesty's Government to carry on a war without having obtained the necessary Supplies from Parliament; and that the question of obtaining those Supplies for warlike purposes must, according to all Constitutional usage and precedent, precede any domestic legislation. The noble Marquess opposite had said that Supply might be taken to-morrow, but the hope of the noble Marquess was vain. If the Secretary of State for War would do what he, perhaps, did not often do—namely, look at the Order Book, he would discover that there were no less than three important Notices of Motion down for to-morrow night, and there was no ground for believing that those Notices would be postponed in order to enable the Government to obtain Supply at a reasonable hour. If he was already aware of that fact, the truth was that the Government proposed to ask the House to consider Civil Service Estimates amounting to £360,000, and Army and Navy Estimates amounting to £500,000, at half-past 12 or 1 in the morning. He (Lord Randolph Churchill) believed that was a proposition that ought to be made known to the public. He did think that when there were bloody battles being fought in the Soudan, when our railway stations were flying in the air, when our cattle were dying by hundreds and thousands, and when our expenditure was increasing by millions, that the Opposition had a fair right to call upon the Government to proceed with the vital Business of the nation, and to postpone their theoretical legislation.

MR. GLADSTONE

Sir, I must apologize for rising to address the House upon this Motion, because I must confess I share the doubts and the misgiving of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War as to the orderliness, so to speak, of the discussion. But I shall assume that, in my desire to accommodate the House, I shall receive the same indulgence that was granted to him. Therefore I would say this—that when I stated that we should be prepared to consider if some arrangement could be come to with respect to the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill as soon as the House had decided upon, not necessarily accepted, the Motion which I hope to have the honour to submit to-night, I had in my mind some stage of the Representation of the People Bill which might probably require time, in which case we might expedite the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill as much as possible. Hon. Members know it is necessary to make inquiry as to how far a Bill is likely to proceed smoothly through its stages or not. Our desire is to expedite the former Bill; and if, unhappily, we find that any stage of its progress may seem to require time, we shall make the best arrangements that we can after the question has been submitted to-night. When I said that the general, if not the uniform, practice, has been to dispose in a single night of the question of the introduction of a Franchise Bill, I did not suppose that I was laying upon the patience of Members any severe tax. I ought, perhaps, to have said before that I was not aware that the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill had only just reached this House. I believe that the first reading of the Bill will be taken as a matter of course to-night; and with respect to the second reading, it will certainly be put upon the Paper at once, and the second reading fixed for Monday night, in order that the Bill may be printed without delay. If there should be a prospect of serious debate about the measure, then what I have said before will hold good. Hon. Members will recollect that I have already spoken of the interval after the introduction of the Franchise Bill as an interval which we may turn to account by putting forward the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill. With regard to the other question, the reason why we have put down the Civil Service Estimates for consideration to-morrow night is, that we wish to take advantage of any such fragment of the night as may be available. We do not, however, think it likely that we shall be able to command such an amount of time as would give us the right to ask the House to discuss a Vote for Military Expenditure which may be made the subject of protracted debate. That is the reason why the Civil Service Estimates have been chosen. Of course, the earlier the day when we can come to a vote upon the military charge, the better will the convenience of the Government be suited. I hope that I may assume that the present discussion may now terminate by the withdrawal of the Motion for Adjournment.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

asked leave to withdraw the Motion.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he claimed, on behalf of the country, that there should be a due interval between the introduction of the Reform Bill and the day appointed for the second reading of the measure.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put. Ordered, That the Orders of the Day subsequent to the Order for the Committee on Mr. Speaker's Retirement (Queen's Answer to Address) he postponed until after the Notice of Motion for leave to introduce the Representation of the People Bill.