HC Deb 22 February 1884 vol 284 cc1810-20

[ADJOURNED DEBATE.]

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Nomination of Committee [11th February].

Question again proposed, "That Mr. Henry Edwards be one other Member of the said Committee."

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Sir Edmund Filmer be one other Member of the said Committee."—(Sir William Hart Dyke.)

MR. SEXTON

moved the omission of the name of Sir Edmund Filmer, in order that the name of Mr. Leamy might be inserted in its stead. The constitution of this Committee was extremely unsatisfactory to the Members of the Party with whom he had the honour to act; and he might say that, as a Party, they used the Dining Room more regularly and more constantly than any other Party in the House. He did not know on what principle the Committee had been selected. The Committee was chosen at the beginning of each Session; but no one had been able to discover that the majority of the Gentlemen selected had any knowledge of the duties they were appointed to discharge. Several of them never saw the Dining Room; but he thought a Committee of this kind ought to be chosen from amongst those who frequented the Dining and Refreshment Rooms. His own observation, and that of his hon. Friends, went to prove that the catering arrangements were bad both in respect of efficiency and economy. The record of the Committee was a most lamentable one, for the Committee were guilty of a woeful neglect of duty. They appeared to do their work in the dark, and the result had not been satisfactory to the majority of the Members. He should be inclined to take a Division in respect to each name proposed, unless the right hon. Baronet (Sir William Hart Dyke), who had charge of the Motion, would consent to accept one or two names he had to suggest, in order that the Irish Party might be able to bring their opinions to bear upon the proceedings of the Committee.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the name of "Sir Edmund Filmer," in order to insert the name of "Mr. Leamy,"—(Mr. Sexton,)—instead thereof.

SIR WILLIAM HART DYKE

said, that some discussion took place with reference to the appointment of this Committee some nights ago; and he could say at once that he was not prepared, on the part of the Committee, to accept the Amendment which had been proposed by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sexton). Of course, he did not wish it to be understood that he was desirous of excluding Irish Members from the Committee. As a matter of fact, Irish Members were well represented upon the Committee—that was to say, they enjoyed fair representation. There were three Members representing Irish constituencies now upon the Committee; and therefore he was not disposed to accept the name of the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Leamy), much as he should like to see him upon the Committee. Perhaps he might be permitted to say one word further with reference to the appointment of this Committee. It was obviously a grave disadvantage to the Kitchen arrangements of the House that this Committee should be left for a given period unappointed. There were constant complaints made with regard to the management of the Refreshment Rooms; therefore he need hardly point out to the House that it was a great disadvantage that there should be no body of Members sitting to hear the complaints and control the arrangements. He had nothing more to say with reference to the matter except this—that during the last year or two the Kitchen Committee had paid far more attention to the Refreshment Department than was paid to it in previous years. Members of the House were aware that an extra grant had been made to the contractor; and he might say also that different arrangements had been made by the Refreshment Committee, which it was always hoped would provide good results. He did not think it would be right to extensively increase the number of Members of the Committee at such a time. They wished the arrangements they had now made to be fairly tested. In conclusion, he could only point out the obvious necessity of appointing the Committee on as early a date as possible.

MR. MOLLOY

said, that the other night he made some strong complaints with regard to this Committee, and he did so as a means of bringing the matter before the House. Even presuming that the proposition which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sexton) had made were accepted, it would effect to a very small degree the object which a large majority of the Members of the House had in view at the present time. The complaint, as he explained the other night, was not against the hon. Members who composed the Committee. No one for an instant supposed that they had any other interest than that of obtaining the best conditions under which the Kitchen arrangements could be conducted. They had very little power in the matter. Though some of them had not attended the meetings of the Committee at all, a considerable number of them had attended and done their best. It was not the Committee that was the object of attack—he stated that most distinctly the other night—it was the whole system. Since he made some strong observations on this subject the other night, he had had communications with a large number of hon. Members. They told him distinctly that though they walked into the Lobby with the Government the other night, they did so simply at the request of the Government Whips; they added—"Although we did that you have our best wishes in this matter." ["Name!"] He was not prepared to give names. He quite understood the position in which those hon. Gentlemen were, and he could not say he was surprised at the course they took. It was not only the Members of the House who complained. They had no concern with the other House; but he might mention incidentally that a Member of the other House had told him that the conditions of their Refreshment Booms were of such a disgraceful character that it was an absolute nuisance to their Lordships when they were obliged to dine at the House. As regarded the Commons, those who were in the position of officers of the House, and who were compelled to be in attendance during the whole course of the debates, were also treated in exactly the same manner as the Members were. As he stated on a previous occasion, the facts were simply these. What they got was of inferior quality, and the prices charged were from 50 to 100 per cent higher than those charged in any restaurant in London. If he might venture to make a suggestion in the matter it would be one which might be acceptable to the House. This was not a matter which concerned the Government, or the Tory Party, or the Irish Party only, it con- cerned them all; and he suggested, with the view of effecting not a mere improvement, which could be effected by some small change made on the recommendation of the Committee, but an improvement in the whole management—he suggested the appointment of a Select Committee to examine into the whole thing. The appointment of such a Committee for such a purpose could not cast any slur upon the hon. Members who sat upon the Kitchen Committee; it could not affect the Government or any Party in the House. A large number of hon. Members desired to see some radical change in the general arrangements; and he asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, he presumed, would say a word or two upon this subject, what possible objection there could be to the adoption of the course he proposed? It would cost nothing; it would cost little trouble; and there were many Members sitting on the Government side of the House whom he knew were prepared to do whatever work was necessary. He was aware the right hon. Baronet (Sir William Hart Dyke) had done his best, and had devoted much time and attention to the duties of the Committee—his attendances proved that; but he was in a position in which he had very little power. The whole matter was in the hands of the contractor. The House had placed it in his hands; and, oddly enough, they were told, as a reason why things were so bad, that it was impossible to make any profit out of the contract. If it was impossible to make money when the contractor had nothing to pay for his licence, when everything was found him except mere eatables and drink, and especially with a double grant which had been made him this year, why was he so anxious to retain the work? ["He is not!"] An hon. Gentleman cried, "He is not!" It appeared to him (Mr. Molloy) he was—in fact, he knew he was—and, moreover, he (Mr. Molloy) was perfectly satisfied there was a very large profit to be made out of the Kitchen. He was not interested in the business himself; but all he wanted to see was that Members of the House should get a fair dinner at a fair price. The Dining Boom arrangements were bad; the refreshments outside the Dining Room were bad; the Smoking Room. arrangements were bad; and there was not a Member of the House who frequented the Refreshment Rooms who did not, at some time or other, complain bitterly of the treatment to which he was subjected. He (Mr. Molloy) suggested to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he might very fairly grant this Select Committee; he did not wish to press the matter further; and he only threw out the suggestion as a means of arriving at a satisfactory settlement of the whole matter.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)

said, that as this was not in any sense a Party question, but merely a practical question, he had no objection to answer the appeal which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Molloy) had made to him. As far as he understood matters, one objection to the reappointment of the Committee was taken on the ground that the Gentlemen selected were not chosen fairly, having regard to the different Parties in the House; and another was that the whole system was wrong, and that the House should discard the present Committee and appoint a Select Committee to examine into the whole question.

MR. MOLLOY

said, the right hon. Gentleman misunderstood him. If a Select Committee were appointed, the old Committee would be elected to act until fresh arrangements were made.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDEHS)

said, he would deal with the first objection in a word. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) complained that the Committee was selected with an unfair regard for the requirements of hon. Members sitting upon the Irish Benches. As a matter of fact, it was proposed to elect four Irish Members upon the Kitchen Committee, two Members of what was called the Nationalist Party opposite, and two sitting on the Ministerial Benches. One of the former had been already appointed, and to the addition of another he had no objection; but it struck him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that, out of 15 who composed the Committee, four was rather a largo proportion of Irish Members. The real question, however, which had been put to him by the hon. Member (Mr. Molloy) was, whether in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion it was desirable to have a Select Committee to examine specially into the whole question of the arrangements of the Dining and Refreshment and Smoking Rooms in the House? He remembered well when a very young man coming to hear the debates, in the old days of Bellamy, when you could got a chop or a steak and little more; and, for his part, he thought the old arrangements were much better than the new. However, they had drifted into a much more luxurious state of things, and Members of the House seemed to think that nothing short of club dinners ought to be provided at club prices. Perhaps the House would allow him to make a suggestion. He did not think it would be fair to the Committee who had the ordinary charge of the kitchen matters, that they should be practically superseded, because that would really be the result if a Select Committee were appointed to inquire into the arrangements. Surely the present Committee themselves were quite competent to look into the whole question. They had a very considerable acquaintance with the requirements of Members in the Refreshment and Dining Rooms; and therefore it would be very much better, after the debate which had occurred, that their attention should be fully given to the points raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Molloy). There seemed to be an idea—and perhaps it was a proper one—that it had been too much the custom to re-appoint year after year those who had served in previous years, without any regard being had to the amount of attention which they had given to the business of the Committee. He would suggest that the Committee should now be re-elected, and that next year those who had given little or no attention to their duties should not be re-appointed, but in their stead Members should be chosen who did take an interest in the subject. The right hon. Baronet (Sir William Hart Dyke) and the Committee might then with advantage take up the whole question of the catering arrangements; considering it part of their duty, not only to manage under the present system, but to recommend any better arrangements, if, upon inquiry, they thought it necessary. If that was the view of the House, he would ask them to proceed to the re-appointment of the Members of the Committee, adding the name of the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Leamy), as recommended by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton). Of course, the name could not he added to night; but it could on Monday after Notice had been given.

MR. E. POWER

said be thought the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a very fair one indeed—namely, that next year a Return of the number of attendances of the Members of the Committee should be issued, and that those Members who had not attended to their duties should be struck off, and other Gentlemen elected in their place. He (Mr. Power) trusted, however, that now the House would give its assent to the Motion that his hon. Friend (Mr. Leamy) be added to the Committee.

MR. ONSLOW

said, he did not often dine in the House; but he had dined here this Session, and should like to remark that nothing could possibly be worse than the dinners Members were served with in the building. He did not wish to disparage the Kitchen Committee; but he should be very glad indeed to see a Select Committee appointed to consider the matter, and did not think it would be derogatory upon the present Committee to expect them to give evidence. He dined in the House the other night, and was supplied with something the waiters called codfish. He did not himself know what it was; but he was perfectly sure that nothing more filthy could possibly be served. He sent the stuff away. Something else was brought that was also described as fish; but it was perfectly black, and he sent that away too. The contractor, when he complained, said—"Do not back your bill, sir; we should be very sorry if you made a complaint." It was perfectly scandalous that they should be treated in this way. They did not want so very much; but what they did want they should have of a tolerably decent kind. If this Committee were to be appointed, it was really necessary that they should see that Members got something better than they were at present supplied with. Nothing could be worse than the present catering, and he was by no means the only person who made complaint. Members of the Committee asked—"Why do you not back your bill?" Why should he? He knew how useless it was, and never backed a bill at a Club, or anywhere else. It was not worth the time nor the trouble. As he had said, he seldom dined in the House; but he wished to impress it on the Committee that when Gentlemen did dine within the building, it was desirable that they should get something infinitely better than they were at present supplied with.

MR. SEXTON

thought the proposal that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Sheil) should be put upon the Commitee a very fair one, and hoped that a Motion to that effect would be made on Monday.

SIR WILLIAM HART DYKE

I will give Notice of Motion.

MR. SEXTON

said, he was sure that all the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. R. Power) and the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) desired was that there should be an efficient Committee appointed.

MR. GRAY

said, he was glad the proposal had been agreed to. It was quite time attention was called to the operations of this Committee, because it appeared to him that its chief weakness was this—that though there were good men upon it, who were thorougly competent to appreciate a good dinner, those were the persons who seldom dined in the House, and had, therefore, little knowledge of what the catering really was. It was Members who came from a distance, and who had no residence in London, who, naturally, required to use the Dining Room more frequently than others. Those ought to be the Gentlemen represented on the Committee. He quite appreciated the difficulties which those who undertook the catering had to face. One night they might have to cater for 300, whilst next night they might only have 30 Members to attend to. An unexpected "Count" might occur, when extensive preparations had been made, and the caterer might find his whole business lost for the day. Great consideration, therefore, ought to be extended to the contractors; and he did not think they ought to be compared, either in the matter of promptitude or cost, with restaurant keepers, who could always count on a certain number of customers per day. Still, he believed, great improvement could be effected, and that great improvement was necessary. He did not think the difficulties in connection with the Dining Room existed also in connection with the Smoking Room. All last year the Smoking Room had no bell, and it was almost impossible to summon an attendant. There was no means of getting a waiter unless a Member walked about the place to find one. A bell had been supplied this Session, however; but the attendant was usually asleep in a cupboard in the Dining Room when required, and the bell was of little use. This evil could be rectified without large additional expenditure from the Public Treasury, and without much extra difficulty on the part of the Committee. He was sure the addition of the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Sheil) to the Committee would be of some use, and that this discussion would not be without effect.

MR. O'SHEA

said, that as to the want of a bell in the Smoking Room, complaint had frequently been made to the Kitchen Committee, who had no power to do anything. There were many other things complained of and laid to the charge of that Committee, which really had nothing to do with them. It would be a good plan, he thought, if the First Commissioner of Works were appointed a Member of the Committee, so that the Committee would be able to bring their moral influence to bear on him. Later on he should move that the name of the First Commissioner of Works be added to the Committee.

MR. WARTON

said, he dined in the House very often, indeed, for one reason, because he could not trust the Government, and desired to be always on the watch. To his mind, if bon. Members had any complaint to urge, it was far better to submit it to the representative of the contractor—who was a very obliging person—than to make it in that House. He had already by this means secured two reforms. He was now able to get Yorkshire pudding with his beef, and cream with his tart, without having to wait a long time for it.

MR. TOMLINSON

suggested that the system of supplying coffee and tea in the Smoking Boom should be considered by the Kitchen Committee. This debate would not be without its good results if the Committee would direct their attention to the general arrangements, with a view to their future improvement.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to. Sir EDMUND FILMER, Sir GABRIEL GOLDNEY, Mr. DUFF, Lord KENSINGTON, Mr. MONK, Mr. MUNTZ, Captain O'SHEA, Mr. RICHARD POWER, Lord HENRY THYNNE, Mr. ARMITSTEAD, Mr. THORNHILL, and Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE, nominated other Members of the said Committee:—Three to be the quorum.