§ BARON HENRY DE WORMSasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is the fact, as stated by the Paris correspondent of The Times, that active negotiations are going on between France and England with a view to the co-operation of the former power in the struggle against the Mahdi and the pacification of the Soudan; and, whether it is contemplated to issue another joint Note?
MR. GLADSTONEThe statement to which the hon. Member refers has certainly been made in error. I am aware of no such negotiations.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If his attention has been called to a letter from Tewfik Bey, Commander of Sinkat, which appeared in The Standard newspaper of the 22nd, and especially to the following portion:—
I am in a very miserable position from want of proper provisions. I will do my utmost to resist up to the end of January, but unhappily I have hardly enough provisions to last to the 23rd. I pray you to induce the Government to send a relieving force with provisions as soon as possible, even before the 15th of January, after which our condition will be miserable in the extreme. The soldiers have become weak, and grave sickness has already begun; should the worst come to the worst, we will endeavour to cut our way through, when our fate is in the hand of God;and to the following remarks of the Correspondent of The Standard:Whether Sinkat falls in the meantime or is relieved, the above letter is interesting, and worthy of publication, as showing the indomitable spirit of this young civilian. If all those who hold the Khedive's commission had but a tenth part of Tewfik's pluck and energy, the regeneration of Egypt would be an easy task. The garrison of themselves would have yielded long ago were it not for the determination of their leader;and, whether, in view of the fact that this brave officer and his garrison are in 442 deadly peril within thirty miles of the Red Sea coast, of which Her Majesty's Forces are now in occupation, Her Majesty's Ministers will take immediate stops to rescue the garrison of Sinkat from destruction; also, whether his attention had been called to the following communication from the Correspondent of The Times in that morning's paper:—Within four days of a British Army, 7,000 strong, within a few hours of a port where a British Admiral is tardily allowed to take the supreme command, are a small starving garrison who, having given signs of unusual heroism, are allowed to treat with barbarians for their bare lives, this request being refused, and the whole of them probably massacred?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERBefore my right hon. Friend replies to this Question, I beg to ask him three other Questions, of which I have given him private Notice. First, Whether the Government has received any information confirming the telegram from Cairo, through Router's Agency, in this morning's newspaper, stating that—
A less gloomy view now prevails concerning Tokar and Sinkat. It is reported that a convoy of provisions has succeeded in entering Sinkat.Second, Whether it is not the fact that Sinkat is less than 40 miles from Suakim, which is now occupied by a British force, and that Tokar is less than 20 miles from the port of Trinkitat, which is within a few hours' sail of Suakim? I ask these two Questions in the hope that the relief of these garrisons is still not impossible; and I, therefore, also ask my right hon. Friend whether the Government intend to take any steps to relieve the garrison of Sinkat, or that of Tokar?
MR. GLADSTONEWith regard to matters to which the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett) calls my attention, the first of them relates to a state of circumstances long gone by, and with regard to which we can only say we regret that the present circumstances are more hard and grievous than existed before. With respect to the statement made this morning to which he refers, it appears that, so far as I can catch the purport of it, that it is more a question for debate and discussion than for an answer to a Question. The Question of the hon. Member associates itself with the wider Question put to me by my right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster), to which I will reply. I will say that I 443 have no doubt that the statement of distances given by my right hon. Friend is probably accurate. On the Question itself I would say at the present moment we are very sensible of the deep interest attaching to the question of the extrication of the whole of the Egyptian garrisons from the Soudan, with respect to which we are not able to say positively, except as to the garrison of Khartoum, what is the actual condition of any of them. We share entirely the deep sympathy which is felt for those garrisons. But with regard to the inquiry whether it is in the view of the Government practicable to make any attempt towards the relief of the two garrisons in particular, I would say that we quite recognize the special features in the case of those two comparatively very limited garrisons; but it would not be possible for me, in an answer to a Question, to mate a statement satisfactory to the House. Conditions, diversity, and importance beyond what my right hon. Friend seems to contemplate by his inquiry are involved. All I can say is, I think the only satisfactory course would be, that in the very earliest opportunity in my power, in the debate to-morrow, I should state fully the views of the Government upon this question, that it can be made the subject of free comment, and when, also, I hope to be in possession of somewhat fuller material.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERWill the right hon. Gentleman kindly answer the first part of the Question?
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLCan the right hon. Gentleman state whether Sinkat and Tokar are within the territory over which Admiral Hewett has assumed a British Protectorate, and whether it is the case that the officers and crews of a French and an Italian man-of-war wished to land at Suakim in order to protect the interest of foreigners at that place, and whether they were prohibited from doing so by Admiral Hewett?
MR. GLADSTONEI wish, first of all, to refer to the term "Protectorate," which the noble Lord inadvertently used; and which, he says, Admiral Hewett has assumed over a certain portion of territory. There is no such Protectorate. But Admiral Hewett has received full authority as Governor to act 444 in Suakim itself, both on the island and on shore.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLFrom whom?
MR. GLADSTONENaturally he has received authority from the Ruler of the country. That I assume to be the case, just in the same manner as General Gordon has received a commission with regard to the Soudan. I make no doubt of it. Then the noble Lord asks whether the crews of French and Italian vessels have expressed a desire to land in Suakim for the protection of their respective nationalities, and have been prevented. We have no intelligence, I think, of any sort to that effect; and, moreover, I do not think it likely that any such refusal would be necessary, because, I believe, there is not the smallest doubt with regard to the security of Suakim under the orders of Admiral Hewett.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEWould the right hon. Gentleman favour us—I do not ask for the minute instructions—but can he favour us with the nature of Admiral Howett's appointment or appointments? He is, I understand, in the service of Her Majesty. I presume he has some commission from Her Majesty on the subject, and apparently, from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, he has also a commission from the Egyptian Government. It would be very convenient if we could be informed of the nature of those powers which are given to him.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHAs Admiral Hewett is Admiral commanding-in-chief of the East Indian Station, and is in full pay of Her Majesty, is he not in command of Her Majesty's ships?
MR. GLADSTONEWell, Sir, I believe that the intelligence of Admiral Hewett's command has been conveyed to Her Majesty's Government in the very briefest and most succinct and decisive terms, and I cannot imagine that there can be any difficulty in presenting it to the House.
§ MR. CHAPLINDo I understand the right hon. Gentleman to decline to state to the House until to-morrow, whether the Government intend to take effective measures for relief of the garrisons of Sinkat and Tokar or not? It seems to me that this is a question—[Ministerial cries of "Order!"]—which, in order to allay the intense anxiety of 445 the country on the subject—["Order, order!"]—ought to be answered without a moment's delay. I do not ask for any details, but for a simple answer to the Question.
MR. GLADSTONESir, I am very sorry—though I attach all due weight to the opinion of the hon. Gentleman—that I cannot answer the Question further than I have already done. My object is to lay the views of the Government and the information that they possess before the House in such a manner that it can he made the subject of debate. I have already stated that it is not in my power at present to fulfil that intention. The hon. Gentleman really speaks as if it were in our power to create means of observation by the word of command. That is not so.
§ LORD JOHN MANNERSMay I ask this Question of the right hon. Gentleman? I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that he purposes tomorrow to place before the House the views and opinions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the possible relief of these garrisons of Sinkat and Tokar. What I think the House really wants to know is not what are the views and opinions of Her Majesty's Government, but what have been or are to be their acts. I therefore venture to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we are to understand that no instructions have been sent, either to Sir William Hewett, or any other British commander, to procure the release and safety of the garrisons?
MR. GLADSTONEThe instructions and the actions of Her Majesty's Government will be conformable to their views and intentions, subject to the correction of Parliament, and I must decline, after what I have said, to enter upon any question as to what Her Majesty's Government have done or have not done down to the present moment, only stating that it will, in my opinion, be found by Parliament that no part of this case has been neglected by them.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERI hope I am not out of Order in saying I understand my right hon. Friend's answers, especially the first, to be that although he cannot give a definite reply to-day, yet that the Government have not come to an absolute decision or given up all hopes of relieving these garrisons. ["No, no!" and "Hear, hear!"] I 446 assume that to be the tenour of his first reply. I wish also to ask whether the Government have received confirmation of the report that General Gordon has arrived at Berber; and also whether they have heard if he has or has not left Berber?
MR. GLADSTONEI not wonder at all at what has been stated by my right hon. Friend; but if I were to make any comment upon it, probably it would lead to discussion beyond the Rules of the House. Respecting General Gordon, we have received intelligence of his arrival at Berber. I may also state that General Gordon has informed us—of course very briefly and succinctly—that he has received numerous messages, but he does not state from where; but I have no doubt these are messages from within the Soudan, expressing pleasure at his appointment. We do not know whether General Gordon has left Berber.
§ MR. GIBSONBearing in mind that we are on a question of hours, and of vital importance, and that these garrisons may be massacred within the next 12 hours, I should like to ask the Prime Minister if the authority given to Admiral Hewett comprises in it a discretion, if he is able to act with the powers at his disposal, to march to the relief of Tokar to-night or to-morrow morning?
MR. GLADSTONEI have already been obliged by considerations of my public duty to decline to make any further statement on the subject.
§ VISCOUNT EMLYNIs there any truth in the report which appeared in The Standard of to-day to the effect that the military authorities at the War Office have given orders that no more English officers shall be allowed to join the Egyptian Army?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONThat statement is not accurate. No such orders have been given. It is, however, the fact that, looking to the efficiency of the British troops serving in India, it is not desirable that more officers or noncommissioned officers should be taken from that force to serve in the Egyptian Army. No obstacle will be placed in the way of a supply of officers and non-commissioned officers from home.
§ SIR JOHN HAYI wish to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, if he will inform the House whether any special telegraphic instructions have been sent 447 to Admiral Hewett, who as Commander-in-Chief in the East Indies and Red Sea, has no authority to act upon the Littoral or upon the shores of the Red Sea without instructions from home; and, if so, what are his instructions?
§ MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANWe are in constant communication by telegraph with the Admiral; and no doubt any instructions given to him will be announced to the House by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government to-morrow, so far as he thinks it right to do so.
§ MR. CHAPLINI wish to ask whether I am quite right in understanding that it is the deliberate intention of the Prime Minister that the House and the country shall be left in absolute uncertainty until to-morrow as to whether the Government intend to take any means or no means at all to relieve these garrisons?
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTBefore the right hon. Gentleman answers, I should like to ask him a Question with reference to his reply to the last part of my Question, as to whether the Government intend to take immediate steps for relieving these garrisons? The right hon. Gentleman stated that it was not in the hands of Her Majesty's Government to take these steps.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTNow, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman this Question—Is it not the fact that on the 22nd of December last Sir William Hewett gave Her Majesty's Ministers full information of the state of peril in which the garrisons were; and whether it is not the fact that, within four or five days' march, at the furthest, from Suakim, there are 7,000 British troops available?
MR. GLADSTONEThe hon. Gentleman refers to what Sir William Hewett knew with regard to these garrisons in December. I do not recollect dates or particulars; but unquestionably there was knowledge at that time that these garrisons were in danger. Perhaps I might extend that, and say that there were other garrisons in the Soudan which were in danger. The hon. Gentleman seems to forget that at and after that time means were organized by the Egyptian Government for the relief of those garrisons, which it 448 was believed and confidently expected would prove sufficient.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSI wish to ask whether the Government will give the House any Papers before the debate to-morrow? [Ministerial cries of "No!"] Why not?
MR. GLADSTONEI will take care to communicate with my noble Friend. I do not know what the state of the case may be. It is a matter for the Foreign Office. I will take care that the latest information is laid on the Table—the latest that can be had tonight.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSI am speaking not only of the Foreign Office, but also of the Admiralty. Why should we not have all this information in our hands?
§ MR. W. H. SMITHIt is of the highest importance that the despatches of the Admiralty in particular should be laid on the Table; because the right hon. Gentleman can understand that Sir William Hewett could not have taken the position offered by the Khedive without the sanction of the Government.
MR. GLADSTONEI perfectly understand that, and I may say confidently that what has been done has been done with the concurrent action, so far, of the two Governments, the permission of Her Majesty's Government apparently being necessary. I quite agree with what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman, but I am not able to commit the Representatives of the two Departments, but they will do their best to lay their Papers on the Table.
MR. J. LOWTHERI wish to ask whether there is any truth in the statement which has been made public to the effect that General Gordon has requested that decorations should be forwarded to him for distribution among the population of the Soudan; and, if so, whether the right hon. Gentleman can state the nature of those decorations, and whether they are of English or Egyptian origin?
MR. GLADSTONEI am not of opinion that any advantage is to be gained to the Public Service by giving details of the means which General Gordon would have to use in the execution of his most difficult duty. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that it is not through any discourtesy that I decline to answer him.
§ MR. ONSLOWI wish to ask the Government, whether it is intended to ask for a Vote of Credit to cover the cost of the despatch of troops and ships of war?
§ SIR HENRY TYLERWill the right hon. Gentleman toll us what amount of force we have available at the Red Sea?
§ [No answer was given to these Questions.]