§ SIR HENRY HOLLANDsaid, he was glad that the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) had brought Bechuanaland under the consideration of the House, and glad to see the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) in his place, as he desired, before the House broke up, to get some more definite information 632 concerning the actual condition of affairs in that country than he had been able as yet to elicit by Questions. He felt that it was somewhat hard upon the hon. Gentleman to be called upon, without Notice, to give this information; but, on the other hand, the House had been placed in an unfortunate position upon this question. They had not got any Papers upon the subject, although a promise was made that such Papers should be presented. It was unnecessary to point out the great inconvenience arising from this delay in presenting Papers until after debate. Only a few days ago a debate took place on Zululand, and a point that he (Sir Henry Holland) raised in the course of that debate was answered, or alleged to be answered, by a sentence in a despatch from Sir Hercules Robinson, which was quoted from Papers that had not then been presented, and which had not even now been delivered to hon. Members. It might be that the sentence quoted was an answer to his point; but he should have liked to have seen the despatch, because, taken with the context, he might have been able to show that the sentence had really a different effect to that put upon it in the debate. And, in addition to not having got any recent Papers—he thought none since Mr. Mackenzie went there—there had been no opportunity of discussing this subject, owing to the joining of the Supplementary Estimate of £30,000 for Bechuanaland to the original Vote in Class V. The debate on Zululand, which was under the same Vote, lasted all day, and the Division was not taken till a quarter to 6, so that discussion on Bechuanaland could not take place. He thought, for these reasons, that the House was fully justified in seeking to have a clear statement from the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State as to the actual condition of affairs in Bechuanaland; and he would venture to ask him to answer the following questions:—What steps, if any, had been taken to protect the interests and property of our Native allies, Montsioa and Mankoroane? Had these Chiefs, or either of them, been attacked by the Boers? Had we recognized, or did we propose to recognize, the Boer Republics of Stellaland and Goshen; or had we warned the Boers that we should not allow these Republics to be continued? 633 Had the Boers in these places recognized our protecting authority, or had they disputed it by action? And, lastly, had Mr. Mackenzie been finally recalled, or had he been only sent for to the Cape to confer with Sir Hercules Robinson, and was he afterwards to return? He hoped the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State would be able to satisfy the House upon these points. Turning to another subject, he could not but regret the absence both of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the Secretary to the Treasury, as he desired to suggest to them a change in the mode of dealing with Supply. Owing to the withdrawal of Government Bills—of which the number had been modestly put by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at nine or ten, and of which it might certainly be said that nothing in their progress became them so much as their withdrawal—Supply had been more fully debated than usual. But what he desired to suggest to the Government was, that a different arrangement should be made in the mode of bringing on the Classes of Votes in Supply. As it was now, Classes I. and II. were always brought on first; the same points were raised over and over again, year after year, and much time was wasted on comparatively small points, as the wages of charwomen, the expense of cleaning and repairing of public buildings and so forth; while important Foreign, Colonial, and other questions, which were raised under the later Classes, were rushed through at the end of the Session in thin Committees. He would suggest that the Government next year should begin, say, with Class V., and not deal with the earlier Classes until they had completed Classes V., VI., and VII. He should also have wished to have known from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had he been in his place, whether he (Sir Henry Holland) was right in assuming that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had completed his examination of the Expenditure of the different Government Departments; and whether he—that was, the Government—would move for the appointment of the Expenditure Committees to which he had referred, and of which he had approved, or whether it was to be left to a private Member to do so? He thought the Government ought to undertake to move for the appointment of such Committees, and he hoped that the Chancellor of the Ex- 634 chequer would do so at the proper time.
§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEYsaid, that in replying to the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill), he utterly repudiated the suggestion that the appointment of Mr. Mackenzie to the office which he held in Bechuanaland was a bogus appointment made to please certain people, and that Mr. Mackenzie was withdrawn as soon as that object had been obtained. If the Colonial Office had been guilty of such conduct, they were very foolish not to postpone the dismissal of Mr. Mackenzie for one week, by which time their alleged action would not be subject to Parliamentary criticism. Mr. Mackenzie owed his appointment, in a great degree, to the recommendation of Sir Hercules Robinson. Everyone who had come in contact with Mr. Mackenzie was impressed by his fitness for the post in many respects; but he was wanting in experience of the administration of public affairs of any importance. If he (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) was asked why Mr. Mackenzie had been recalled, and whether permanently or not, he could not give the House a confident answer. He had, as yet, no full information as to the recall, the only communication concerning it which had been received by the Colonial Office being contained in a telegram from Sir Hercules Robinson, who announced that he had thought it necessary, "for various reasons," to recall Mr. Mackenzie, in order to confer with him at Cape Town, and that in the meantime he had sent Mr. Rhodes in his place. No doubt, a despatch was on its way to this country giving the reasons for the step that had been taken. Whether the recall would be permanent or not, he was, as he had said, unable at present to say; but as to Mr. Rhodes, whom the noble Lord had described as "an unknown person," he might be unknown to the noble Lord—and, perhaps, was not the worse for that—but he was a gentleman of some distinction, who had always shown himself to be a great sympathizer with the Native races, and who had rendered great public service on the Griqualand West Commission and as a Member of the Legislative Council. He had gone at the invitation of Sir Hercules Robinson, and the Transvaal Government had directed M. Joubert to proceed 635 to the frontier of Bechuanaland to confer with him. With regard to the general state of affairs in Bechuanaland, he was sorry that he was unable to give a very positive or a very clear account, because the Government had been almost without despatches for the last three or four weeks, and had been obliged to depend upon telegrams. It appeared, however, that the Stellalanders had, more or less, accepted the proposals made by Mr. Mackenzie, and were anxious to be annexed to the Cape Colony. During the time that he was Commissioner, Mr. Mackenzie gave them to understand that it was not proposed to confiscate, in a wholesale manner, the land tilled and occupied by the people of Stellaland, and that they would, under the proposed arrangement with the Cape Colony, be at liberty to continue in the occupation of land to which they could show a good title, provided that they respected the rights of the Natives living side by side with them. They were, therefore, somewhat anxious to become annexed to the Cape Colony. There was no conflict between them and Mankoroane; but whether they would remain under the Protectorate of England, or be annexed to the Cape, was still under consideration. The general aspect of affairs was very different when they came to consider the action of the band of freebooters who had made themselves conspicuous in Goshenland. According to the latest telegraphic intelligence, a very serious attack had been made on Montsioa by a body of men living within the Goshen territory. Montsioa's loss had been heavy, two Englishmen being among the killed. The Boers had lost 30 men. It was not clear from the telegram which had reached this country what was the result of the fight; but he gathered at least that the Boers had been driven back and temporarily checked. The supposition was that Mr. Rhodes had been sent out by the High Commissioner to discuss this affair with the authorities of the Transvaal. The Transvaal Government had put out that they would not countenance these acts of the Goshenites, and it was to be hoped that when General Joubert, or whoever was sent by the Transvaal Government, met Mr. Rhodes, some effective means would be taken to prevent further outrages. Her Majesty's Government maintained that if the 636 Transvaal Government did not, as a body, join in the fray, and would abstain from these raids, the police force that was being established, and which he believed was now established, would be quite sufficient to keep order on the border. This unfortunate conflict was, he believed, merely an attempt on the part of freebooters to force a battle before the police force arrived on the spot.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLHow many are there?
§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEYreplied, that there were 100 mounted police. With respect to the Bechuana Papers, it was not the intention of the Colonial Office to lay any further Papers on the Table of the House until the Autumn Session.
§ SIR HENRY HOLLANDsaid, that a promise had been previously made to present the Papers up to the close of the present Session. He hoped now that the Transvaal Government had ratified the Convention, that Her Majesty's Government would press the appointment of a Commissioner on the border.
§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEYsaid, he thought he had not made any such promise; but as he was reminded of it, he would take care that the Papers up to date should be placed before the House before the end of the Session, with regard to the Convention that had been ratified by the Volksraad with certain reservations as to the frontier line.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he had been glad to hear the last statement of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Evelyn Ashley), that the police force would be soon formed, and that with that force he expected to be able to preserve order; but he thought hon. Members would agree with him (Mr. W. E. Forster) that that order would not be preserved unless the police had power to act, and were told to act, as they might see necessity so to do. The Convention, it was said, had been confirmed by the Volksraad; but, looking back at the past, they might be perfectly certain that this second Convention would be a dead letter like the first, unless there was a determination on the part of Her Majesty's Government to see that it was observed. The hon. Gentleman said Her Majesty's Government hoped that a Government situated like the Transvaal Government would not sanction that action of these people on the Border, but that was of 637 very little use. A mere statement upon trust that there would be no such sanction was only empty words, and he hoped there would be some declaration on the matter, made in such a manner as to impress everyone in South Africa with a belief that it was intended—a declaration that Her Majesty's Government were determined not to allow this second Convention to follow the suit of the other Convention and be disregarded. From what had fallen from his hon. Friend, he understood that this was the determination of the Government, that the assurances given by Her Majesty's Government some time ago in regard to this Convention remained unchanged, and that what had happened in regard to the recall of Mr. Mackenzie had nothing to do with the general policy of the Government. As to this question of Mr. Mackenzie, he thought it had been left in a very unsatisfactory condition by his hon. Friend, and he would like to ask him if the Government had received any despatch from Sir Hercules Robinson upon this matter since the last answer was communicated to the House? [Mr. EVELYN ASHLEY: No.] He was somewhat surprised, if that was so, as to the changed tone of the hon. Gentleman's remarks on this subject. Hitherto the House had been told that Mr. Mackenzie had been sent for with regard to the settling of the frontier. Could the hon. Gentleman state whether or not Mr. Mackenzie had been dismissed?
§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEYsaid, that he had not anticipated this debate, and being, therefore, unprepared for it, he had not in his mind the date of Sir Hercules Robinson's latest despatch; but his impression was that an additional answer to that he had communicated to the House had been received, in which it was stated there were certain reasons that had induced Sir Hercules Robinson to recall Mr. Mackenzie apart from his wish to consult him about the state of affairs.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that as Mr. Mackenzie's name had been mentioned, he thought he should say that he entirely agreed with the opinion that had been expressed as to the high character, motives, and general ability of this gentleman, who was appointed at the recommendation of Sir Hercules Robinson. He confessed he was glad when he heard he was appointed, though 638 he had nothing to do with pressing forward his appointment. He thought there were good reasons why he was specially fitted for the appointment; but he could also understand why those whose misdoings it was the purpose of the Government to prevent, should naturally feel interested in trying to get rid of Mr. Mackenzie. He trusted that the fullest consideration would be given to this subject, and that Mr. Mackenzie would not be deserted, unless there was good reason why that should be the case. But, at any rate, they had the assurance that the policy of Her Majesty's Government had not changed, and that whether Mr. Mackenzie remained or not, the Government were determined to make the Convention a living reality, and that they intended to preserve order and peace in Bechuanaland, and to prevent, as far as possible, those Chiefs being sacrificed who had been attacked mainly because they had been our friends and had assisted Her Majesty's Government. There was only one other matter that he wished to allude to. As he (Mr. W. E. Forster) understood, an answer had been given that day by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) to the effect that the Government were determined to preserve peace and order in the Reserve Territory, but could not undertake to protect those Zulus who suffered because they had invited the Boers to come to them. He thought that was an unfortunate reply to the question, because the condition of that part of Zululand could not be summed up in the misfortunes that came to the Zulus, because their Chiefs had asked the Boers to come over. There was a good deal of injustice and robbery happening in Zululand to Zulus whose Chief's had not asked them to come over; and he hoped his hon. Friend would somewhat modify his answer, and explain that it was meant not to imply the general policy of the Government with regard to that territory, because, in that case, it would be a most complete disavowal of all duty and responsibility on our part for the disorganization of this district, which was due not to the Boers having been invited over by any Natives, but to the attacks made upon the unfortunate people by Boers brought over by their enemies. It would be a disavowal of a kind that would not bear examination in point of fact.
§ MR. RITCHIEsaid, he thought the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. W.E. Forster) was very sanguine if he expected this second Convention to be any thing but a dead letter. He (Mr. Ritchie) believed that there had been nothing more disgraceful in the annals of this country than the way in which the Government had sacrificed those Natives who had assisted us in South Africa; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, and those who, like him, had declined to support their views by their votes, had, perhaps, done more than any other persons to lend countenance to the action of the Government. The idea that the Zulus had invited the Boers was too absurd for discussion; for it was very well known that the Boers were the prime means of inflicting all these evils on the Natives. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after his sarcastic allusions to the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill), and after condemning the epithets he had used, retreated. He was very severe on the noble Lord, both on the question of the noble Lord's epithets and with reference to the house of Baring.
§ Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
§ MR. RITCHIE, resuming, said, he did not propose to follow the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his remarks on the subject of the house of Baring; but the sending out of Lord Northbrook did seem as though there was an intention of the Government to make up a family party. It was said that Lord Beaconsfield, when Mr. Disraeli, had never used such epithets as the noble Lord employed; but the Liberal Party had never so conducted themselves during the time that Mr. Disraeli was alive. In their unsuccessful attempt to secure the friendship of France, the Government had sacrificed that of Germany and Austria, without succeeding in obtaining the goodwill they sought. The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied that the Prime Minister had made any promise to appoint a Committee to inquire into the Expenditure of the country; he had only said that if the House desired it, such a Committee might be appointed. But if it was advantageous, the Govern- 640 ment ought to take upon itself the appointment, and not leave it to a private Member. He was not prepared to say that the Expenditure of the country was greater than it ought to be; but the fact that it was larger under the present Government than during the period of Office of the late Administration was a complete condemnation of the course they took when they were before the country in countenancing the gross charges of extravagance brought against the Conservatives, and promising to alter it. The Liberal Party were now far more extravagant than the Conservative Party had ever been. With regard to the Navy, the late Government had purchased several ships, which, in his opinion, was a better policy than building them, considering the enormous cost of construction in oar Dockyards. The late Mr. Ward Hunt had described our Fleet as a "phantom Fleet," and had done so with the approval of the independent Members in the House. With regard to stores, also, the late Government left them in a better condition than that in which they had ever been before; whereas, on their coming into Office, it was notorious that the stores had been in a very exhausted condition. Again, in the speeches made on the subject of the Expenditure of the late Government by influential Members of the Liberal Party, it was remarkable to observe the way in which they completely ignored the additional expense which had been imposed on the Government with reference to education. He had no doubt but that the observations which they had heard from the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) were directed not to the House but to the constituencies. With regard to the legislation of the Session, they were already at the 12th of August, and it would be two days more before the Prorogation would take place. That was about the duration of an ordinary Session, and yet what was the record of Business the Government had to show? Why, they were attempting to impose on the country the belief that all their great measures had had to be abandoned, because of the action of the House of Lords with respect to the Franchise Bill. The Government had never really intended to pass the London Government Bill, which had only been brought in in deference to a certain section of their followers. It 641 was the same with other Bills, for no one could for a moment contend that, in any case, there was ever the smallest chance of any one of those measures passing into law. It was a great convenience to the Government to be able to abandon them, and at the same time to be furnished with the cry that the legislative barrenness of the Session was due to the action of the House of Lords in refusing a half-scheme of Reform.