§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the attention of the Government has been drawn to the statements of a Catholic Missionary, who has just reached Cairo from the Upper Nile, that it is—
Impossible for General Gordon to maintain himself with the present garrison. For defending the Canal alone he requires 6,000 men. Both Niles are now beginning to sink, and with blocks of wood the Arabs will cross from bank to bank.…An attempt to escape by way of Berber would be absolutely vain,and to statements made by the Correspondents of The Daily News and other papers that the Mahdi's propaganda is exciting the Arab tribes from Berber to Assouan, and that Egypt is in "a state of chaos;" and, whether the Government will lay upon the Table the Despatch from General Gordon on which the First Lord of the Treasury grounded his statement that "the position of General Gordon is a position of security?"
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEYes, Sir. Her Majesty's Government have seen the statements to which the hon. Member refers. I stated yesterday that further Papers were about to be laid on the Table; but I cannot undertake to state from day to day what particular Papers will be included. I wish, in connection with this subject, to make a slight correction in a statement I made yesterday. I said, in regard to the garrison of Shendy, that from the 289 accounts received from the Governor of Berber, "it appeared that the garrison were surrounded and had been massacred." Sir Evelyn Baring telegraphed on the 20th instant, that the Governor of Berber said that they were surrounded; and Sir Evelyn Baring, telegraphing on the same day, said that M. Cuzzi, General Gordon's agent at Berber, telegraphed that "they were believed to have been massacred."
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLasked when the Papers might be expected to be laid on the Table?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEsaid, they would be laid very soon, but he could not tell the date.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTThe noble Lord has not answered the last part of my Question. Did the House correctly understand him and the Prime Minister to say yesterday that Berber was in a state of imminent danger, Khartoum the centre of the great rebel camp, and that retreat was practically cut off?
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTI ask the noble Lord whether the statements given yesterday by himself and the Prime Minister were accurate? I would also ask whether the special despatch to which the Prime Minister referred as indicating that the position of General Gordon was one of security cannot be immmediately laid on the Table?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEI said it was impossible for the Government to state in answer to Questions from day to day what Papers would be laid. I must abide by that statement.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANDo I understand it is impossible to produce this one particular despatch of General Gordon?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEI did not say it would be laid or it would not be laid on the Table; all I did say was I could not give it now.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLI would ask whether it would not be in accordance with the usual practice of the House that, the Prime Minister having quoted verbally from a despatch, that document should be laid on the Table?
MR. GLADSTONEThere is no objection to lay this document upon the Table. What my noble Friend says is, that he is preparing Papers with all possible expedition so as to present them 290 together; but he declines to separate this from the other Papers. In point of fact, the judgment upon General Gordon's position does not rest upon a single despatch, but it rests upon a series of despatches. [A laugh.] I do not know why the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett) should laugh, and I do not see that he does justice to us or justice to himself by receiving this with ridicule. I repeat, that it is upon a series of despatches that the judgment of the House must rest with regard to General Gordon; and the House will best form that judgment when it sees those despatches.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLI wish to ask whether the quotation made from the despatch yesterday was not of such a nature as to bring it within the Rule of the House that that particular despatch must be produced?
MR. J. LOWTHERAm I to understand that the whole series of despatches to which the right hon. Gentleman refers will be included in the Papers to be laid on the Table?
MR. GLADSTONEI did not say so. It is not my duty to prepare those Papers for the House of Commons. We shall produce to the House what we think will give them full and candid information, and undoubtedly the telegram from General Gordon will be included. When the right hon. Gentleman sees what are produced, if he deems them to be inadequate, which I do not think he will, he will be entitled to complain and to challenge the conduct of the Government in this respect.
MR. J. LOWTHERThe right hon. Gentleman said it was not from a single despatch that a proper judgment could be formed, but that we must judge from the whole series. I want to ask him whether it was the intention of the Government to place the House in that position to form the judgment which the right hon. Gentleman referred to by presenting the whole series of despatches?
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTI wish to explain that I did not laugh just now at the gravity of General Gordon's position, of which I am deeply sensible; but an involuntary laugh was forced from me by the extraordinary discrepancy between the Prime Minister's statements as to General Gordon's secu- 291 rity and the well known facts of the case.
§ MR. RYLANDS (for Mr. GOURLEY)asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If, in abandoning Khartoum, Dongola, and the districts between Abou Hamad and Berber, and between Berber and Suakin, he will be good enough to inform the House whether it is intended that Wady Halfa or Korosko shall be the new line of frontier in Upper Egypt; and, further, how it is intended to protect the Nile and neighbouring districts north of Wady Halfa against future contingencies?
MR. GLADSTONEThe Question of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley) refers entirely to military matters. I am bound to say that, in these circumstances, I am absolutely precluded from entering into details. I can only say the Government will not fail to take all these matter into consideration.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, on April 8th, General Gordon sent a telegram to Sir Evelyn Baring, in which he says—
I have received a meagre telegram from Sir Evelyn Baring stating that the British Government do not intend to send British troops to open the road to Berber, but that negotiations are proceeding with the Arabs for opening the road. You will he able to judge of the value of these negotiations, and also of the time such arrangements will last after the withdrawal of the British troops at Suakin.….Do you think if an appeal were made to the millionaires of England and the United States £200,000 would be available. Herewith you might obtain permission of the Sultan of Turkey to lend ns 2,000 or 3,000 Nizams, and send them to Berber;whether it is a fact, as stated by the British Consular Agent at Khartoum, that "retreat on Berber is impossible;" and, whether Her Majesty's Government will furnish arms and transport to a Volunteer Expedition for the relief of Khartoum? If the Prime Minister would allow him, he would further ask whether it was true, as stated that day, that General Gordon had sent a despatch to Sir Evelyn Baring bitterly complaining of his abandonment by the British Government, and stating that he intended for the future to act on his own responsibility?
MR. GLADSTONEWith regard to the first part of the Question, I am not; in a position to say whether General 292 Gordon has sent to Sir Evelyn Baring a telegram of which the hon. Member quotes a part; but I should rather gather from Sir Evelyn Baring's words that he had not—that he had obtained his intelligence at Cairo. With regard to the next part of the Question, I must observe that the hon. Member rather unintentionally lends to a misapprehension when he speaks of a statement made by a British Consular Agent as if he were in any sense an official personage with regard to these matters. He is nothing of the kind. A Consular Agent is a person who undertakes, on the part of the Foreign Office, the discharge of certain specific services, and, as I understand, he is no more an agent of the British Government in other matters, and he has nothing whatever to do with these subjects any more than an hon. Gentleman sitting on the other side of the House, who might be requested by the Attorney General to act as counsel in a particular case, would thereby become the agent of the Crown for any other purpose whatever. With respect to the opinion that "retreat on Berber is impossible," he is entitled to form that opinion, and we shall lay before the House all the information in our power to enable them to form, a judgment on that point. With regard to a volunteer expedition for the relief of Khartoum, we have heard of no such thing, and we shall certainly take no part in any such expedition. It is evident that if we were to take part in a volunteer expedition to Khartoum it would be under circumstances which would make it our duty to send an expedition ourselves. As I have stated, the telegrams I have have referred to are in preparation to be presented as early as possible, and then the hon. Gentleman will form his own judgment upon them.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTI will ask the right hon. Gentleman one more Question, and it is, Whether, after the statements which have been made as to the imminent peril of General Gordon at Khartoum, the House is to understand that Her Majesty's Government are taking no steps whatever for the relief of Gordon?
MR. GLADSTONEWith all respect to the hon. Member, I must say he puts a Question in the preamble of which he asserts and implies that which I have repeatedly and positively denied—namely, 293 that we know that General Gordon is in imminent peril. It may be the opinion of the hon. Gentleman and of other hon. Gentlemen opposite that General Gordon is in imminent danger. In our view that is an entirely erroneous opinion, and it is entirely and absolutely contradicted by the language of General Gordon himself. Upon that subject the hon. Member will have the means of judging when the Papers are laid upon the Table.
§ MR. BOURKEI am very unwilling to delay the Business of the House; but I wish to make a suggestion to Her Majesty's Government—and I put it in the form of a Question that I may be in Order—namely, Whether in view of the fact that the inhabitants of Berber and Khartoum, under the impression that no relief was to be sent to them, may, in despair, submit themselves to the Mahdi, it is not advisable to announce that a relief expedition will be sent as soon as the military authorities think it feasible?
§ MR. BOURKEIf the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to answer that Question now, I will put it down for Thursday.
MR. J. LOWTHERIn connection with the answer of the right hon. Gentleman as to the position of the Consul General at Khartoum, I wish to ask whether it is not the fact that General Gordon in one despatch referred the Government to a letter in The Times by the British Consular Agent as affording more detailed information than he had himself time to communicate?
MR. GLADSTONEYes, Sir; I believe there was a reference of that kind, but I have not the means of judging how far it was intended to go, and whether it was intended to refer to some particular letter or to embrace all that might be written.
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFI would ask whether it would not be convenient for the Government to let the House know the exact position of the Consular Agent who is acting in Khartoum, by laying on the Table the despatch containing the instructions given him at the time of his appointment?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEIf I am not mistaken, I think the hon. Member will find what he asks for—two 294 telegrams or despatches—already presented; but if the hon. Gentleman will put a Question on the Paper I will inquire into the matter.
MR. J. LOWTHERThe right hon. Gentleman stated more than once that the Government had no reason to believe that General Gordon had ever made a demand for British troops to be sent to his assistance. Am I to understand that the Prime Minister means that he has positive knowledge that General Gordon has never made such a request?
MR. GLADSTONEWhat I have stated is, and not as a matter of impression or surmise, but as a matter of fact, that no request of General Gordon for the sending of British troops to Khartoum has ever been made, or, if made, has ever reached Her Majesty's Government. I limit myself to Khartoum, because that is the vital question, and undoubtedly it was a suggestion of General Gordon that a small force of British Cavalry should be sent to Berber. If I remember right it was 200; but I will ask the right hon. Gentleman not to take that number as a precise and positive statement. Particulars will be given in the Papers.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTI would ask whether it is true that there are no more than three Englishmen in Khartoum; whether it is not probable that they would be in communication with each other; and whether the Consular Agent, being in communication with General Gordon, would not be a most unlikely person to send any message without the knowledge and approval of General Gordon?
§ MR. HENEAGEI would ask whether it is not in the knowledge of the Government that on the very day that the Consular Agent sent the letter of the 11th of March to The Times, there were letters sent by General Gordon stating exactly the contrary in every particular?
MR. GLADSTONEI believe—I cannot state myself with absolute knowledge, but my full belief is—that the telegraphic communications of Mr. Power to the journal with which he is connected in this country, or by anyone else, are under no restraint or control whatever from General Gordon.
MR. J. LOWTHERWill the promised Papers include the Proclamation by General Gordon in the course of which he 295 said—"I have sent for British troops, which are now on the way?"
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEIt is important that these Papers should be presented as soon as possible, and I should like to ask when they are likely to be laid upon the Table?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEI cannot fix any exact date.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEThen I appeal to the Prime Minister. [Cheers.] Time is of so much importance in this matter that there ought to be no delay.
MR GLADSTONEI meant to answer that appeal by cheering. I entirely agree that no time should be lost in this matter; but, of course, we are anxious to bring down the Papers to as late a date as possible.