THIRD RADING. (Hansard, 8 April 1884)

MR. J. LOWTHER
On a point of Order I wish to ask your opinion, Mr. Speaker. This Bill was put down by Order for to-day, and an intimation was conveyed to me through the ordinary channels that it would be taken. So late as an early hour this morning I was informed by the Chairman of Ways and Means that the Bill would be taken. But, further, I feel it my duty to call your attention to the very extraordinary course which has been adopted by the promoters of this Bill. I should first of all, before I raise the point of Order, like to know whether it is intended to proceed with the Bill now? [Mr. DODDS: No, Sir.] Then I must, with reluctance, call your attention to a point of Order. Sir, my attention has been called to the fact of a Circular, signed by a Member of this House, having been sent to many Members of the House. The Circular is in the following terms; and as a point of Order I think it right to draw your attention to the Circular— Reform Club, Pall Mall, S.W., 5th April, 1884. Stockton Carrs Railway. This Bill stands for Third Reading on Monday next, but Mr. James Lowther, M.P. has given Notice of opposition, and consequently the Third Reading will be taken on Tuesday next at Two o'clock p.m. precisely. My son is the Solicitor for the Bill, and I am exceedingly anxious to carry the Third Reading and defeat Mr. Lowther's opposition. May I beg that you will do me the very great personal favour to attend the House on Tuesday next, precisely at the hour named, to support the Third Reading? Hoping very earnestly for a favourable response, I remain, yours faithfully, JOSH. DODDS. Now, among the Standing Orders of this House is one that lays down, in clear and precise terms, that no Member of the House is entitled, with respect to a Private Bill, to take any action when he has a personal interest in that Bill. Now, I have reason to believe that the person alluded to as the solicitor for the Bill, and described by the hon. Member as his son, is, to all practical intents and purposes, associated in business matters with the hon. Gentleman. Within the last 24 hours I have had occasion to attend, in the country, a meeting of a Commission to which the hon. Member for Stockton is legal adviser. His place on that occasion was taken by his son, to whom reference is made in this Circular; and apparently an interchange of 4 work is taking place, and the hon. Member is very actively representing his son in regard to this Bill. I venture to submit this as a point of Order. If this kind of thing is allowed, it is bringing to this side of the Atlantic some of the objectionable "Lobbying" and "Logrolling" practices known in the United States, to bias the opinions of Members of the House.

§ MR. SPEAKER
The question of Order which has been raised comes on me by surprise. I was not aware of what had passed, or of the nature of the Circular alluded to. But I am not at all sure that this is the proper time to raise the question of Order on the Motion for the postponement of the Bill. I am not prepared to say, on the face of it, that this Circular transgresses the Standing Order in such a way that I am called upon to take notice of it.

MR. J. LOWTHER
I shall repeat my question, Sir, on the point of Order. I should like, also, to have an explanation as to the Motion for postponing the Bill. I was informed at an early hour this morning, by the Chairman of Ways and Means, that this Bill would be taken to-day. This Circular to which I have referred had been sent out, and other Circulars also, drawing the attention of Members to the Bill, had been sent out; but not one single syllable was conveyed to me on the subject as to the change of intention in taking the third reading until, in an under-tone, that intimation was conveyed in the Motion made just now. I think I am entitled to ask for some explanation as to the most unusual course adopted, and the want of courtesy to individual Members and the House at large. To put myself in Order, I will move that the Order for the Third Reading be discharged.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
Before that Question is put, Sir, I rise to Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Lincolnshire has 5 brought before the House a certain document which is now in your possession, and has quoted the terms of that document to the House. He has asked you, as I understand, whether the issue of such a document by a Member of the House, if it was issued by a Member of the House, was not a violation of the Orders of the House—in fact, a breach of the Privileges of this House; and, Sir, I apprehend, in so very serious a matter as appears to be contained in that document, the House, having been put in possession of the terms of that document, cannot avoid giving some judgment on it, having regard not only to the order of its Business, but its own dignity and the dignity of its Members. Sir, in that document, which is signed by the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds), there is a passage of the most questionable, and, possibly, of a most objectionable nature. I waited, before I commented on the document, to hear whether the hon. Member whose name is at the bottom of it offered the House at once, and without any loss of time, some explanation of the history of the document; but the hon. Member for Stockton, whose name is on it, remained silent. Now, what was that passage, for I think the public out-of-doors will be of opinion that the House takes this kind of matter, where immense pecuniary interests are involved, very lightly if we allow this to pass over without notice from the House, or any attempt at explanation from the hon. Member? The passage was—I caught it from the reading; I have not seen the document until now— My son is Solicitor for the Bill, and I am anxious to defeat the Motion of Mr. J. Lowther. A Circular is sent to the Members of the Liberal Party dated from the Reform Club, and a direct incentive—Cries of "Order, order!"]—I am quite in Order. I am speaking to a point of Order, and I intend, with the permission of the Speaker, to conclude with a Motion on the point of Order. It is sent by a Member of the Liberal Party——

§ MR. M'COAN
I rise to put it to you, Sir, as a point of Order, whether the noble Lord is not wandering at length into a speech which has nothing to do either with a question of Privilege, or with the Motion before the House? Is he in Order in so using the time of the 6 House, when he rose exclusively on a point of Order?

§ MR. SPEAKER
The Question before the House is that the Order for the Third Reading of the Bill be discharged. I am bound to say, in reference to the point of Order, that I scarcely think the Standing Orders cover such a case as this. What I said was, that I would respectfully submit to the House that, a question of Order having arisen, it should be raised when the Bill is taken. I understand now the Bill is to be postponed, and the point will be raised at another time. I thought it the most convenient course that I should have time to consider the point of Order, and give my ruling when the Bill comes on for discussion.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
May I respectfully submit to you, Sir, and to the House, that it is extremely essential that the House should not part with this matter in a hurry. In the first place—let me entreat the indulgence of the House—the honour of a Member of the House is directly involved; and, therefore, the Privileges of the House are immediately in question. I raise this question, which I am going to bring before the House, as a matter of Privilege, and on this account — that the moment the honour of a Member is involved, the matter becomes of a highly urgent nature that will not brook delay; and let me point out that why it is necessary to take notice of it now is because there is not the slightest guarantee that this Bill will ever be proceeded with. If, in order further to elucidate these very strange proceedings, we wait until the House can proceed again——

§ MR. HOPWOOD
I rise to Order, Sir. I beg, Sir, to ask you whether we are not to understand that you have ruled that this point must come on when the Bill is taken at a later stage; and whether the noble Lord is not now, under pretence of suggesting several things to your consideration, violating your ruling in this respect?

§ MR. SPEAKER
I repeat, it would be the most convenient course, in my opinion, that this matter should be reserved until the Bill comes on; and I stated I would then give a decision on the point raised as to whether this subject, now for the first time presented to my notice, is a violation of the Standing Orders. I said the point is so novel that 7 I should like to have time to see whether it contravenes any Standing Order or not. I submit to the House that is the most convenient course.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
May I, Sir, ask you one more question, and, in doing so, I do not in the least wish to question your ruling. I do not understand that you have given an absolute ruling against me. But I wish to ask you whether I should be in Order in moving as an Amendment, or as a substantive Motion, that the Circular communicated to the House by the right hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. J. Lowther), and issued by the hon. Member for Stockton, is a gross breach of the Privileges of the House? Shall I be in Order in moving that now?

§ MR. SPEAKER
No. That must be done as a separate Motion; it could not be raised in the discussion of the Bill.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
Is it not the essence of a question of' Privilege that notice should be taken at once on the matter involving the question of Privilege? I certainly take up the position that the House being in possession of the matter, the House is involved, and it is open to a Member to take the judgment of the House for the protection of its Members.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
— [Cries of "Order!" and "Chair !"]—I rise to speak on the Motion before the House in spite of the cries—the most disorderly cries—of hon. Gentlemen opposite.

§ MR. HEALY
Not more than your own sometimes.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Lowther) has asked for an explanation.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
I must rise to Order upon that. I asked you, Mr. Speaker, a question on your ruling which you delivered on a point of Order, and, in answer to the hon. Member for Stockport, whether I should be in Order in moving that the Circular is a gross breach of Privilege? I apprehend that if that Motion is not made now it never can be made?

§ MR. SPEAKER
The Question now before the House has to be disposed of. It will be competent to the noble Lord to make a Motion afterwards.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Lowther) says he expected this Bill would come on, since it was put down by Order for 8 to-day, and I must take the whole responsibility of the Order not coming on. I knew nothing of this personal question at all; but I saw it was extremely likely from the Notice on the Paper, and from what I heard of the opposition to the Bill, that it might interfere with the important Public Business coming on to-day. I know there is a great disposition when there is a peg to hang something of that kind upon it. I, therefore, made an appeal to my hon. Friend behind me to postpone this Bill, which, I am bound to say, he was extremely reluctant to do; and it was only at my earnest instance that he consented to the postponement, in order that the time of the House just now should not be occupied by the discussion of a Private Bill; and still less, I should say, should it be occupied with personal questions at this time, when everybody knows the time is limited within which the House has to dispose of Public Business. Now, I would, Sir, if I may take the liberty, support the appeal you have made to the House to postpone the whole of this question.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
It could never come on again.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
Well, the Speaker has already ruled that the matter may come on as a separate Motion; and I am sure the House will be slow to reject your appeal, Sir, that time should be given for the consideration of the matter. The noble Lord said, as a matter of importance, it should not be hurried.

§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL
I did not say that. I said this particular matter.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
Well, I say it is being hurried on now, and that there will be a better opportunity of taking the judgment of the House by a Motion. It hon. Gentlemen opposite think they have a strong case, then it will be none the worse for waiting; and I ask them not to hurry on the matter.

§ MR. DODDS
Sir, I yielded most reluctantly to the solicitations of the right hon. and learned Gentleman not to proceed with the Bill to-day. I have in my hand two or three little notes made since I came down to the House, for I came quite expecting to hear the right hon. Gentleman opposite speak in opposition to the Bill and move its rejection, and I was prepared to answer him. When appealed to last night I declined to post- 9 pone the Bill; but I have now yielded to the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, after mentioning the matter to the Chairman of Ways and Means, who thought that the Bill might occupy considerable time; and, therefore, we agreed it ought to come on after Easter. That is the whole explanation why the Bill has not come on to-day. Just a word with respect to the Circular. I believe a portion of it was suggested before I left town on Friday. I left it in the hands of my secretary, with instructions to confer with the Parliamentary agents for the Bill, and to despatch it, with the reasons in favour of the Bill, to some of my personal friends, by Saturday's post. I left town on Friday, and it was not until Sunday or Monday morning, while in the country, that I saw the terms of the Circular. I then expressed regret that the one particular passage which has been referred to was contained in it. I only desire, further, to add that the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, that there is something behind it in connection with my son, is wholly and entirely destitute of foundation. I have no more to do with the Bill and the matters involved in it than as Member for Stockton. I introduced the Bill into the House, and was desirous to pass it through, in the belief that it would be of great benefit to the district; but I will not go into that at present. The right hon. Gentleman says he attended a meeting where he saw my son representing me, and that there was something like an exchange of work between us. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that my son is associated with me in the office of chief clerk to the Tees Conservancy Commission, and is only discharging his duty, whilst I am discharging mine in the House.

MR. J. LOWTHER
To meet the convenience of the House, I am willing to withdraw my Motion to discharge the Bill, which I only made in order to allow of an explanation being given. But I should like to have a distinct assurance as to what day the Bill will be put down for, for Members have to attend at great inconvenience. I must again take exception to the fact that I was allowed to leave after the Division last night without being informed that the Bill would not be taken. Nor, apparently, was the Chairman of Ways and Means informed, for I am sure, had 10 he known, he would, with his customary courtesy, have informed me.

§ SIR ARTHUR OTWAY
I knew nothing of it.

MR. J. LOWTHER
I am sure of that. It must have been concealed from the Chairman of Ways and Means. I will not follow that up; but I must say it is most inconvenient that Members, having public and private Business to attend to in and out of the House, should be kept in ignorance up to the last moment of the intention not to proceed with a Bill in which they are interested. I do not wish to go into the merits of the Bill further than to say that I have in my hands ready for presentation to the House Petitions on the subject, signed by a majority of the Local Board of Stockton, and from a public meeting of the inhabitants, protesting against the Bill—["Order, order !"]—and when the time comes I will go into this matter, notwithstanding the disorderly interruptions of the Secretary to the Treasury, to which I must call your attention, Sir, for they are too habitual to be passed over. Meanwhile, I will withdraw my Motion, provided I am assured as to what day the Bill will positively be taken.

§ MR. DODDS
I have already moved that it be taken on April 21. I will only add, further, that when he came into the House the Chairman of Ways and Means fully expected the Bill was going to be taken. I had been in his room a minute before.

MR. J. LOWTHER
I must object to that date positively, and I must take the sense of the House on my Motion, for I am already for that day engaged to attend a public meeting of importance in my own constituency—an engagement which it is impossible to put off. I must beg that it be taken not earlier than Thursday.

§ MR. DODDS
In response to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman, I have no objection to alter the date to Tuesday the 22nd. It cannot be longer delayed. While I am on my feet, I take the opportunity of saying that I exceedingly regret if any passage or paragraph in the Circular seems in any way to infringe the Privileges of the House.

MR. J. LOWTHER
I am sorry to appear pertinacious; but I understood it was to be the earliest day after the Recess. I would suggest the Tuesday after the Recess.

§ MR. DODDS
That will be the 22nd,

MR. J. LOWTHER
Very well.

MR. HICK'S
I beg to draw the attention of the House to the understanding that was arrived at a few days ago, that we were to have a Morning Sitting on the first Tuesday after the Recess for the express purpose of taking the Cattle Diseases Bill, and I will ask hon. Members whether they think it reasonable that a question of this nature, which, on the showing of the promoters of the Bill, is likely to take up a large portion of the Sitting, should be put down for Tuesday—I will ask hon. Members whether it is right that a most important Bill, to which the agricultural interest is looking forward with so much anxiety, should be postponed for the purpose of devoting that Sitting to a Bill of a private nature? I must offer the most strenuous objection to the date Tuesday, the 22nd.

§ MR. DODDS
If the right hon. Gentleman prefers Tuesday, the 29th, I have no objection.

MR. J. LOWTHER
No; I cannot do that. I cannot withdraw my Motion until I know what day the Bill will come on. I propose Thursday, the 24th.

§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT
We are anxious to meet the right hon. Gentleman's wishes. We have mentioned two days, and they are objected to. Now he proposes to put it down for the Budget day. Let us say Friday, the 25th.

§ SIR STAFFOED NORTHCOTE
I must remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the arrangements for today, which are the ground of the hon. Member for Stockton putting off the Bill, were made at such an early period that the whole re-arrangement might have been made in good time, and my right hon. Friend might have been informed at an early hour.

MR. J. LOWTHER
I accept the suggestion for the 25th, and beg to withdraw my Motion.