RESOLUTION. (Hansard, 22 May 1883)

HC Deb 22 May 1883 vol 279 cc714-26 714

§ MR. R. N. FOWLER,
in rising to move— That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the statement of the financial affairs of India should he made at a period of the Session when it can he fully discussed, said, he wished to point out that it had been the habit of successive Governments, for a long course of years, except upon the occurrence of some particularly urgent circumstances, to put off the introduction of the Indian Budget until the Appropriation Bill was brought forward just before the close of the Session, when it was impossible to afford any adequate opportunity for its discussion. He had made the same Motion in 1878, when he was supported by the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) and the Postmaster General (Mr. Fawcett). At that time he stated to the House that the Budget had been constantly brought forward in the Dog Days. He quoted from Hansard the dates between 1858, when the Company was abolished, and 1873, when he addressed the House. Since then there had been no improvement. In 1873 the Budget was brought in on July 31, the Prorogation being on August 5; in 1874, August 8, the Prorogation being August 7; in 1875, August 9, the Prorogation being the 13th; in 1876, August 10, the Prorogation being the 15th; 1877 was an improvement, as it was brought in on June 21; but in 1878 it was August 13, the Prorogation being on the 16th; 1879 was, again, an improvement, as it came on on May 22, and was twice adjourned; 1880 was the Dissolution, and it was brought in on August 17, three weeks before the end of the Session; but in 1881 it was August 21, the Prorogation being on the 27th; and in 1882, August 14, the Prorogation being the 18th. Against that system protests had been made over and over again, without effect, by the right hon. Gentleman the present Postmaster General (Mr. Fawcett), and by other eminent authorities 715 in that House, who were deeply interested in the affairs of India; and he would, therefore, appeal most earnestly to Her Majesty's Government to seriously consider whether something could not be done to remedy what appeared to him to be a scandal. The existing system not only prevented the House from taking that interest which it ought to take in the affairs of India, but it was a direct violation of the pledges given by many eminent men, when the Government of India was transferred from the East India Company to the Crown. Great as was the importance of the Business pressed upon that House, he could not help feeling that it owed almost as great a duty to the people of India; and it was for that reason he ventured most humbly to submit the Resolution, of which lie had given Notice, to the judgment of the House.

§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the statement of the financial affairs of India should be made at a period of the Session when it can be fully discussed."—(Mr. R. N. Fowler.)

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL,
in rising to move, as an Amendment, that the Indian Budget should be "referred to a Select Committee, and after examination properly discussed by the House," said, he very much sympathized with the views of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. R. N. Fowler), and heartily wished it were possible to attain the end desired by him; but, in the pro-sent state of the Business of the House, he did not think there was any prospect of inducing the House at large to apply itself to the difficult question of Indian finance. Most certainly there was no hope of such an eventuality occurring during the present Session; and, therefore, his (Sir George Campbell's) Amendment was moved with a view to reducing the hon. Member's Motion to a more practical form. It was very desirable that there should be, in this country, some authority charged with the duty of reviewing, to a certain extent, the Indian Budget. There was one authority to whom that function might be considered to appertain, and that was the Council of the Secretary of State; but that body worked in the dark, and under an extremely dubious Act, and he did not think they exercised any sufficient control over the finances 716 of India. But there were also other reasons why it was impossible for the House at large to deal satisfactorily with the finances of India. He was of opinion that Parliament had too much centralized the affairs of that great Empire in one Legislative Chamber; the House was consequently overburdened with work, and if it was to undertake the duty now proposed, that work could not possibly be adequately performed. That House, moreover, was not competent to deal with many of the questions involved in Indian finance. It was not desirable, in his opinion, that a very minute and active control should be exercised over the finances of India by that House; but, on the other hand, he did think it was desirable that, as Parliament had the duty of controlling the finances of the Empire, the review of the Indian finances should not be reduced to an utter farce, as it usually was. It should be real and useful in some shape; and the only way to make it so would be to refer it to a Select Committee of capable men, to whom those accounts could be submitted, and thoroughly reviewed, so that there might be an effective and useful debate upon a Report to be presented to the House. It was necessary that something of that kind should be done in justice to the Government of India, who, carrying on their functions a long way off, were subject to misrepresentation; and it was desirable that there should be an impartial tribunal which would deal with the accounts, and would shield the Government of India from the injury and injustice occasioned by unintelligent debates in the House and comments in the Press. The recent Motion of the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope) was, in his opinion, of the nature of an attack upon Lord Ripon, although it was not framed with that view. [Cries of "Order!"] It was a Motion which spoke of Lord Ripon as the most extravagant Governor General we ever had; and, in a speech the other night, the hon. Member again charged Lord Ripon with extravagance. It seemed to him (Sir George Campbell) that charges of extravagance in regard to India were the burden of all the speeches in that House upon India; but such charges were founded not upon details, but upon generalities, and totals in matters of finance were exceedingly 717 misleading. If the Indian Budget were considered by a Select Committee, it seemed to him that it would be shown that in Lord Ripon's Government there had been no extravagance whatever, and that the charge was totally unfounded; and that not only in finance, but in other matters, Lord Ripon had been a most careful man, and that he had been supported by a most careful Financial Minister, Major Baring.

§ MR. E. STANHOPE
rose to Order, and said, he understood that the debate on his Motion had been adjourned. He asked whether the hon. Member was in Order in discussing that Motion?

§ MR. SPEAKER
said, the hon. Member (Sir George Campbell) was clearly out of Order in referring to a former debate in the present Session. He could not do that. The administration of Lord Ripon was not now the Question before the House.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL
said, he must apologize for trespassing against the Rules of the House. He believed, if the Motion before the House was amended as he suggested, the House would be in a position to judge more fairly of the conduct of the Government of India.

§ MR. R. T. REID
seconded the Amendment.

§ Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "fully," and insert the words "referred to a Select Committee, and after examination properly."—(Sir George Campbell.)

§ Question proposed, "That the word 'fully' stand part of the Question."

§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR
said, he thought both proposals to bring on an Indian debate at an earlier period of the Session, and to refer the Budget of India to a Select Committee, were well deserving the attention of the House, and that they were simply required in fairness to India. They had too long allowed the Indian Budget to be taken at the end of the Session; and he thought the proposal of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. R. N. Fowler) ought to be carried. The materials needed for considering the financial state of India had been in this country ever since the beginning of April, so that ample time existed long before the end of the Session to discuss the affairs of India in connection with finance. 718 He also thought, before the House was asked to consider the complicated and often-changed systems of Indian accounts, that it would be a wise measure to appoint a Standing Committee to examine the Indian accounts every year, and report to the House. At present, in consequence of the changes which had been effected in the accounts of India, it was impossible to compare the present figures with those of former years. He hoped the House would adopt both Motions.

§ MR. MACFARLANE
said, he doubted whether that House could be said, in any sense, to be a proper tribunal to consider the finances of India, for the officials in India were the proper persons to do that; but if it were to be resolved that it should do so at all, the Indian Budget ought to be laid before it early in the Session, in order that the discussion upon them might be a real and a practical one. He was afraid, however, that the Expenditure of India would never receive critical revision at the hands of that House, because any change in it must, of necessity, increase the charges borne by this country. There were very few hon. Members who were acquainted with India; and if they took to cutting down the expenditure they would cut down in the wrong place. It was the expenditure in England, on account of India, that required to be looked into. He believed that a great deal too much was charged for the support of depots of the Army, which should be an Imperial charge. The Indian people were not represented in that House; and what he would like to see would be a Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the relative portions borne by India and this country of the charges made at home for India. If competent financial officials were brought from India and put on the Commission, who would carefully scrutinize the charges upon the Army, India Office, and the contracts for stores sent out to India, a very substantial reduction would, he believed, be made, especially in regard to stores, and the India Office, a Department in which the people of India did not believe.

§ MR. J. K. CROSS
said, he was afraid that, judging from the appearance of the House at that moment, when the House began to discuss Indian questions on the eve of the Derby, India stood a bad 719 chance against the Derby. They talked about India being a matter of great interest to the House of Commons; but no one who looked round the House an hour ago, and would look round it now, would consider that the 600 English Members who adorned the House had any connection with the great Dependency 7,000 or 8,000 miles away. He was very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. R.N. Fowler), however, for bringing forward the Motion, as it gave them the opportunity of being able to say how much some of the Members of Her Majesty's Government, at any rate, wished the ^Resolution could be put in force practically, and at once. He was not at all sure that it would not have been the best plan, and that they would have made some practical progress, if they had taken up that Tuesday evening with a preliminary discussion on two or three questions relating to the Indian Budget. They could thus, at any rate, have got through some of the work which would come before them at a later period of the Session; but if the Indian Budget had been proposed that night, he was afraid there would not have been more hon. Members present than there now were. The hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Macfarlane) had advocated the appointment of a Royal Commission for the purpose of examining, amongst other things, into the stores, and had recommended the appointment of Indian officials on the Commission. But the Indian Council was composed of the most eminent members of the Indian Civil Service; and they, and the authorities at the India Office, were the purchasers of the stores. If they were to do away with the India Office, the total saving would be only £218,000 a-year, which would not make any material difference to the finances of India. With regard to stores, he very much doubted, if they were bought otherwise than by the India Office, they could be got at anything like the same price, for the loss on the metallic exchange would have to be added to the price. The date of the Indian Budget being brought forward in the House depended on three things—first, on the time the Statement was made in India, and, consequently, when it reached this country; secondly, on the progress of Public Business in the House; and, thirdly, on the financial necessities of 720 India. They might, so far as regarded the time the Budget was presented in India, have the Statement laid before the House by the 20th or 25th of May, for he had already revised it; and he hoped that such portions of it as had reached this country would be in the hands of Members within the next three days, as it was in the hands of the printer. With regard to the progress of Business in the House, if hon. Members would devote themselves to getting through the Business as fast as they could, and if the hon. Gentleman opposite would use his utmost influence with his Friends to persuade them to assist the Government in expediting the Business, and not to delay, more than they could possibly help, any of the questions which were immediately pressing for settlement, there was no doubt that the Government would be able to fix a day not later than the middle of July for the discussion of the Indian Budget; and no one would be more rejoiced to have it discussed at that time than he should himself. But, unless that were done, he was afraid the Indian Budget would naturally go the way it had gone before. He was in hopes, however, that the Standing Committees would enable them to get through with the work more quickly than hitherto, and, if they kept in the temper in which they appeared to be to-night, that the Indian Budget would come on at an earlier period than had been the case for some considerable time. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) wished a Select Committee appointed, which should examine into the accounts as they were presented to the House of Commons. The question naturally arose—What could that Committee do? What would be the use of appointing such a Committee? It would really be a Committee of Examination and Record, without effective or practical powers, and, therefore, not of much service. It would examine the accounts; but it could not, as the Public Accounts Committee did now, send for those who framed the Estimates. It would be obliged to take the accounts as they were presented, and give a sort of record of them—a sanction, as it were, to the accounts; and if, by that means, they were to arrive at a much better state of feeling in that House with regard to Indian matters, there was no doubt it would 721 be a very considerable advantage. But it did not seem to him that that would be the result. With regard to the Amendment, if the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy was not satisfied with the accounts as they would shortly be presented, he (Mr. J. K. Cross) should then, on the part of the Government, have no objection to consider whether it would not be desirable to appoint a Select Committee, as was proposed, in the hope that it might make some suggestions with regard to the framing of the accounts; although he did not believe that such a Committee would result in good to India, or in advantage to the House of Commons generally. The accounts this year certainly showed a very great change in form, but little change in matter; and the Expenditure did not appear to have grown very materially. There was only one point he should like to mention to the House. There was a great deal of misapprehension in the way hon. Members looked at the question of Indian Expenditure. It was said—"Look at your Indian Expenditure; it is going up at an enormous rate. The Statistical Abstract of 10 years ago shows that it was £46,000,000, and now it is£76,000,000." Hon. Members might just as well point to the increased expenditure of the great Railway Companies. From the way they spoke of Indian Expenditure they left people to understand that the taxation had gone up in the same ratio; but he maintained that there was no ground for such an inference. It was a mistake to divorce expenditure and taxation, as was frequently done. He would just put before the House the principal heads of Revenue in India during the last few years—Land, Salt, Assessed Taxes, Provincial Rates, Customs, Stamps, and Registration. Instead of being £76,000,000, the total amount raised yearly by taxation from these sources in the three years ending 1874 was £37,000,000 sterling; in the three years ending 1882 it was £41,000,000; the revised Estimate of 1882–3 gave a taxation of £39,600,000; and the Budget Estimate for 1883–4 was £39,700,000. These figures showed a distinct reduction, as compared with 1881–2, of about £2,000,000 a-year. When hon. Members came to look a little further into these figures, and to examine them fully and impartially, they would find that 722 Indian finance was not in the miserable condition in which it was supposed to be. When these accounts were put before them in the way in which they would be put before them in the future, he did not think they should need any Committee to explain them. He was very happy to be able to accept, in a practical sense, so far as he could, the Resolution of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. R. N. Fowler); but he did not think it was necessary to accept that of his hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy, because, as he had indicated, he believed the accounts, when presented, would be found perfectly intelligible and satisfactory. He was sure that when these accounts found their way into the hands of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy he would be ready to compliment the Indian authorities, and thank those who wore present at the India Office for the change which had been effected.

§ MR. E. STANHOPE
said, he had heard, with very great regret, the observation of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. J. K. Cross), that the House was not interested in Indian affairs. He (Mr. E. Stanhope) had always entertained the belief that this country felt deeply interested in Indian affairs, and that it desired its Representatives in that House to show a much greater interest in them than had been the case hitherto; and one reason why the House did not evince more interest in them was, because the Government itself gave the House so little encouragement. He would remind hon. Members that when, a day or two since, an hon. Member endeavoured to bring forward a subject of great importance to India, two attempts were made on the opposite side to count out the House. He thought the House was deeply indebted to his hon. Friend who had moved the Resolution (Mr. R. N. Fowler) for bringing this matter before it, because the way in which the House dealt with the affairs of India was nothing short of a scandal. Although he was ready to admit that blame attached to both Parties of the House in this matter, yet it was of great importance that both should co-operate in the future in an endeavour to get the Indian Budget discussed at an earlier period of the Session; and on this point he was glad to hear what had fallen from the Under Secretary of State, 723 for India; but it was idle for him to say that anything which hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House could do would secure this object; because, if all the Government measures now under consideration were disposed of, others would be brought forward; and he feared that unless the Government showed a determination to act differently than they had done hitherto, the Indian Budget would again be postponed to the end of the Session. As to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), he confessed, he did not like the idea of a Committee, because it would take the responsibility off the House. The only way to reduce Indian Expenditure was for the House resolutely and continually to say that economy should be observed; and then the Governor General, whoever he might be, would undoubtedly turn his attention to the subject and carry it out by a firm and consistent policy. He welcomed, however, with great satisfaction, what the Government had said in regard to the original Motion—that they did accept it in a desire to bring the Indian Budget forward at a time when it could be properly discussed; and he trusted that an effort would be made this year to carry it out.

§ MR. R. T. REID
said, he deeply regretted that the Government did not see their way to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), because there were, he conceived, many points, not only with regard to finance, but to policy, in which a Select Committee on this question could do useful service. It was only in that way that they could arrive at the reasons why certain items had been unduly swelled. A great and growing interest was felt in this matter, both in the House, and in the country; and the Government would doubtless see that it was wise and prudent to encourage discussion upon it. He also thought it important that ample time should be given for the discussion of the Indian Budget, as underlying Indian finance were many questions of policy which required to be dealt with in detail. He trusted the new method of keeping the accounts would prove more satisfactory than those which had preceded it.

§ MR. WARTON
said, he should be sorry if an impression prevailed that no 724 hon. Member of the House was entitled to say anything about Indian questions unless he was an expert, because it was the duty of hon. Members to make themselves acquainted with all the Business that came before the House; and the best way in which they could make themselves acquainted with Indian Business was for the Government to bring forward the Indian Budget at an earlier date. Both Parties were to blame, to a certain extent, in this matter. His experience extended no further than the present Parliament; but he knew that in 1881 and 1882 repeated promises were made to bring on the subject earlier, and wore not fulfilled. Although the Government had accepted the Resolution of his hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. R. N. Fowler), yet the manner in which they had done so seemed to convey the fact that there was an impression on their minds that their first duty was to push forward certain measures of legislation, to the neglect of their real duty, the consideration of English and then Indian taxation and finance; and they seemed to throw blame and reproach on hon. Members on that side of the House because, in opposing such measures, they were delaying the bringing forward of the Indian Budget. He protested against that, and contended that the course pursued in regard to those matters should be reversed. He thought the Government should do the real Business of the country before they engaged in those wonderful schemes of legislation which broke down year after year.

§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE
said, he could wish that the House took a greater interest than it did in Indian affairs. The difficulty in the way of the proposal of his hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) was that the number of Members of this House having knowledge of Indian affairs was so small, that it would be quite impossible for the Indian Budget to undergo the survey which the hon. Member proposed, without taking evidence on the points that might be raised. An inquiry had been conducted, some time ago, by the right hon. Gentleman who now presided over the Postal Department (Mr. Fawcett). That Committee had laid some valuable information before the House, but no practical result had followed; and if there was 725 to be any inquiry again, it ought to be gone into with some definite object. He, for one, was very anxious that some light should be thrown upon the checks that existed upon Indian Expenditure at home. He did not think any adequate check could be imposed by the House of Commons, which was so much occupied with home affairs; and the Indian Council worked in the dark, so that the country really did not know what was the nature of its labours. For that reason, inquiry into Indian taxation and finance was certainly necessary, and the time had arrived when it should be made into the check at home. It was now more than 20 years since a great change was carried out in the Government of India. Before that, there was a very efficient check upon expenditure. The East India Company, from their business habits, and from motives of interest—for their dividend depended upon it—kept a very keen eye upon the expenditure of every rupee in the country, and that with great effect. At the same time, it must be admitted that, in those days, the public works were starved, while the result was now rather the other way. He concurred in the hope that the Indian accounts would yet be presented to the House in a manner that all could understand. Formerly they were intelligible; but they were not so now, partly, perhaps, because the capital and annual accounts were not given together in a clear way. He also thought it was most desirable that, after the interval that had elapsed since the great change to which he referred, the public should be informed as to the manner in which it had worked.

§ MR. O'DONNELL
said, he was glad that a promise had been given that this very important subject would be brought on as early as possible. The only way to insure the matter of Indian finance and Estimates being brought forward earlier in the Session was for the Indian people to take up the matter themselves, and, by expressing their opinions upon it, to make it of sufficient importance that the House of Commons would not neglect to do so. He believed that, if that were done, before five years elapsed questions relative to India and, Indian finance would be dominant topics in the House of Commons.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL
said, he would withdraw his Amendment in con- 726 sideration of the promise that had been made by the Government.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Main Question put.

§ Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the statement of the financial affairs of India should be made at a period of the Session when it can he fully discussed.