HC Deb 10 May 1883 vol 279 cc510-1
MR. ONSLOW

said, it would be in Mr. Speaker's recollection that last Tuesday they had a discussion on this Motion. In the "Votes and Proceedings" of the House he saw— Motion made, and Question proposed, 'That, in the opinion of this House, it is necessary that early steps be taken to reduce the expenditure of India.' And subsequently— Amendment proposed, 'To leave out all the words after the word 'House' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'every effort should be made to effect economy in the Government of India,'—instead thereof. Question proposed, 'That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.' He wished to call attention to the fact that when Mr. Speaker left the Chair the Question before the House was, "That those words be there inserted." The Main Question was, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question;" and it was stated in the "Votes and Proceedings" of Wednesday, the 9th of May, 1883, that "Question put, and agreed to." He thought he was right in saying that this referred to the Main Question—that of his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope)—which was put from the Chair. He wished to ask Mr. Speaker whether what was done on the occasion referred to was correctly stated in the Votes of the House. He believed he was within the recollection of many hon. Gentlemen present who would agree with him when he said that the Motion of his hon. Friend was carried; and that after the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State was negatived, he (Mr. Onslow) rose to ask whether he could not move his Amendment as an addendum. According to his recollection, and that of other hon. Members, the "Votes" were not consistent with what had taken place. Finally, he asked whether his Amendment stood as a substantive one; because, if not, any hon. Gentleman might move an Amendment, just as the Under Secretary of State for India had done, at any word of the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincolnshire.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, that, according to his recollection of the circumstances, the Motion of the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire was put from the Chair after the Amendment of the Under Secretary of State for India had been negatived. The Speaker hung on the point whether the "Ayes" or the "Noes" had it, and the "Noes" did not in any way challenge the "Ayes;" and, after waiting for a second or two, the Speaker declared that the "Ayes" had it, and sat down. Thereupon the hon. Member for Guildford rose to Order, and asked whether he could move his Amendment. The Speaker at first said that the hon. Member was too late to move his Amendment, and the hon. Member then explained that his Motion was not an Amendment, but an addition. As he recollected the matter, the Resolution of the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire was carried; and he certainly understood that that remained on the Books of the House as the Resolution of the House.

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS

said, he was present on the occasion, and his recollection of the circumstances agreed with that of his right hon. Friend. He was astonished to see how totally different the record on the Books was from the facts.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member for Guildford and the right hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the House appear to me to lie under a mistake in supposing that the Motion of the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire was fully carried. The only point fully carried was—"That the words proposed to be left out of the Motion stand part of the Question." If the Main Question had been put to the House as a whole, the Amendment of the hon. Member for Guildford would have been perfectly inadmissible, because, the whole matter being then before the House, no Amendment could be put.

MR. ONSLOW

asked, as a point of Order, whether, after that ruling, it was competent for any Member to move an Amendment to the Original Motion as it now stood?

MR. SPEAKER

The Amendment of the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire is now before the House, and until that is disposed of no other Amendment can be put.