§ Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [3rd May], "That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolution" (from Committee on Constabulary and Police (Ireland).
§ Question again proposed.
§ Debate resumed.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, he understood, on the Motion for leave to introduce this Bill, that the Chief Secretary for Ireland would give some explanation of its provisions. He was surprised that the Government had so far forgotten themselves that the question was about to be put without any explanation.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that, when his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland spoke in the debate upon this Motion, it was impossible for him to make a speech in explanation. His right hon. Friend would be glad to reply to any questions; but he would not be able to make a second speech.
§ MR. O'KELLYsaid, it would be very difficult for any hon. Members to put questions, seeing that they did not know anything about the provisions of the Bill.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. O'Brien.)
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLsaid, he wished to make a suggestion which, he thought, might provide a solu- 1942 tion of the difficulty. It was very usual, when there was a Bill of this kind, for the House to allow an hon. Gentleman to speak twice; and he was sure the House would, on this occasion, extend its indulgence to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland.
§ MR. SPEAKERBy the general indulgence of the House, the right hon. Gentleman may speak again.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, he was very much obliged to the House for its indulgence. He had endeavoured to deserve that indulgence the other night by briefly running through the leading provisions of the Bill, and by consenting to an Adjournment, when he found that was the wish of those hon. Members most interested in the subject. The object of the Bill was the carrying out of the recommendations of the two Committees of Inquiry respecting the Dublin Police and the Royal Irish Constabulary. With regard to the proposed increase of pay for the Constabulary, at the present moment that pay was regulated by an Act of 1874, which made permanent a rise of pay given by an Act of 1872. The main principle on which the present proposal for a rise of pay was founded was this—that, in the opinion of the Committee—an opinion which was quite endorsed by the Government—the pay for the unmarried men in the Force was already sufficiently good. But the Irish Force was a permanent Force, and, amongst the other qualities of a permanent Force, it had the quality of domesticity. It was essentially a married service, and when the men were married they began to be a little pinched, sometimes very considerably. Marriage, therefore, was not recognized in the Constabulary until after seven years' service, because then the men began to receive increased rates of pay. A man in the Constabulary of under seven years' service got 21s. a-week under the old scale; but he would get 22s. under the now scale, which was really no rise, because as long as a man lived in barracks he had 1s. deducted from his pay. A man of from seven to ten years' service would get a rise nominally of 2s. a-week, but actually of 1s. if he lived in 1943 barracks. If the man was married and lived out of barracks be would get the full 2s. rise. After 15 years' service a man would get a rise of 3s. if be lived outside barracks, and 2s. if he lived in barracks. A sub-constable, instead of getting 24s., would get 27s.; an acting constable would be risen from 26s. to 27s.; a constable from 28s. to 29s. and 31s.; and a bead constable, who, under the old scale, received from 32s. to 38s., according to his length of service, would, under the new scale, get from 35s. to 40s. These increases of pay were only given to men over seven years' service, and to those men they were very large increases. After the increases of pay, they came to the increase of allowances, which allowances, by the way, hon. Members would not find in the Bill. In the first place, the Government proposed to give to every constable £1 6s. a-year for boot money. To married men of 10 years' service, in addition to the other great advantages given to them, the Government proposed to give Is. a-week, or £2 12s. a-year, in lodging allowance. There would be a reduction in the marching allowance, for, instead of 2d. a-mile, it was intended to give 1s. for eight miles' march. This reduction would amount to about £4,000 a-year in all, or about one-fourth of the boot money. Summing up the matter, the net result of the increases of pay and allowances would be such that a married man, living out of barracks, would, on an average, be £11 a-year better off than at present—a very large and substantial improvement in his position. There were 3,500 married men in the Force, of whom 2,000 lived out of barracks; and it was rather a satisfactory circumstance to recognize that, in the Royal Irish Constabulary, four-fifths of the men ultimately married. There was another advantage which must not be lost sight of. While three out of four men in the English Force remained in the low ranks, the condition of the Irish Service was such that three sub-constables out of four became constables. Although, in the earlier period of his service, a man of the Constabulary was very well off, when he began to feel the expenses of a family he would receive the increases of pay he (Mr. Trevelyan) had indicated. He now came to the question of pension. Pension was, on 1944 the whole, the subject upon which the men had been most anxious, because, hitherto, there was a sense of injustice and inequality about it which they felt very keenly. Under the scale laid down in the year 1847, a man of over 30 years' service could get full pay. A typical age for retirement was after 28 years' service; and after that period of service, under the old system, a constable got nearly three-fourths of his pay in pension. In 1866 a new scale of pension was set up, and a pension of 5–50ths, going up to 30–50ths of a man's pay, was given. He would not enter into the details of that particular system, but simply say that the men who were pensioned on the full pay got very largo pensions; whereas the men who entered the Service, perhaps, a year after them found a great drop in their pensions. It was now proposed to make a great improvement in the pensions of the Irish Constabulary, and this would be done by t we means. One was by a change in the scale, in the nature of which he would only enter so far as to say that if a man left the Force his scale would be very much the same as now. Between 21 and 25 years' service the scale would rise very rapidly; a man would get 2–50ths a-year instead of 1–50th; and by the time he had served 28 years he would receive two-thirds of his pay. But not only would he receive a larger portion of his pay; but his pay, as already explained, would be very much larger. He (Mr. Trevelyan) would give the financial effect. In 1847, when the scale was on the old pay, a sub-constable of 28 years' standing got about £21. Then there came a great rise of pay, and the sub-constable of 28 years' standing got £46 16s. That was a desirable pension, which these men wished to get. Then came the new scale of pension, and the 28 years' men got, not £46 16s., but £34 18s. 10d.; he saw his comrade retiring on 4s. or 59s. a-week more than himself, and he felt aggrieved. By a circumstance which, in regard to the details, was a coincidence which the Committee endeavoured to arrive at, the sum which, under this Bill, a sub-constable of 28 years' standing would get, was exactly £46 16s. The causes of that were, higher pay and the introduction of the Metropolitan Police pension system. He now came to the case of the Dublin Police. The Dublin Police, 1945 as was very well known, were very much better off than the Royal Irish Constabulary. The change proposed in their position was very much less than that proposed in the case of the Constabulary, really consisting, to a great extent, in taking away those vexatious conditions in their lot which the men felt a great deal. But in taking away those conditions their pecuniary position was improved. The most important change was that a sub-constable in the Dublin Police Force would henceforth rise in pay according to his length of service. Before this, they were divided into classes, and they got from one class to another by competitive examination, and they were far too liable to reduction in rank and pay for misconduct. The Committee thought that when a man was fit to be a constable he was fit to rise to the top of the rank. The Committee, he was glad to say, did not seem to disapprove of the system of competitive examination; but they thought it should have its limits. When a man was once judged fit to enter the Service he should rise by professional capacity, and by the acquisition of professional knowledge. When a constable got to the top of his class, he would get 30s. a-week instead of 29s. The increase in pay was not large; but the increase in pension was more considerable. The result of the legislation which was now proposed would be that a constable in the Dublin Police Force of 28 years' standing would get, instead of a pension of £45 a-year, about £52 10s. The financial effect of the whole scheme was as follows:—The increase in the pay of the Constabulary would amount to £30,632—that would be divided, as hon. Gentlemen knew, between about 13,000 men; the married men's allowance would come to £5,000 a-year; boot allowance, £17,000; and other charges would bring the total up to £53,500. There were expected savings, including the savings in lodging money of £7,000. That would bring the charge to £46,500. The net increase in the Dublin Metropolitan Police for pay was small—it was not quite £2,000 a-year. There was a saving in the salary of the Assistant Commissioner, who had been reduced to £1,200 a-year. The entire increased cost of the active service, therefore, was £47,280 a-year. It was much more difficult to calculate what 1946 the increase in the Pension List would be. The present amount of the Pension List was £220,000 a-year; but the amount which the Pension List would reach, when the full effect of the Act of 1866 was experienced, would be £280,000 a-year. If the later men had been pensioned on the lower scale, the amount would have come down to £190,000 a-year. It had been calculated that, under the present scheme, the amount of the Pension List would rise to £260,000 a-year. Taking the increase of pensions in the Dublin Police and the Irish Constabulary together, they had come to the conclusion that the increased burden on the country, in consequence of the changes proposed in the Bill and laid down in the General Order, would amount to £90,000 a-year. There were certain very great moral and social advantages which were given to the men. First of all, their promotion in the Royal Irish Constabulary would be very much equalized. A man, before he could be put on the selected list for promotion, would have to serve eight years, except in cases of extraordinary merit, so that the disadvantage of being on the out-stations, or the advantage of being close under the eye of those who had to dispense patronage, would not be experienced as at present. In the next place, those unfavourable records which the men regarded with greater anxiety and uneasiness than anything else, which, in their own words, followed a man to his grave and injured his wife and children, would not quite cease, but would be brought within limits. An unfavourable record used to follow t we fines by the County Inspector, t we admonitions by the Inspector General, and one fine by the Inspector General. It was now proposed that there should be an unfavourable record only in the last case, that of a fine by the Inspector General; and that then it should be by special Order. The length of time during which an unfavourable record was to last should be fixed by that Order, and should not last, in any case, more than five years. It was proposed that an unfavourable record should only be a bar to promotion, and should not diminish the man's pension, or injure his wife or family at his death. The amount of fines, both in the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force and the Royal Irish Constabulary, had been reduced. 1947 In the Constabulary, the fines were never to amount to more than £3, instead of £5, as at present; and, in the case of the Dublin Police, the fines might not be higher than £1, or one week's pay. The men off duty wore to be allowed to enter public-houses like other members of society; their wives were to be allowed to carry on a trade or business, the men were allowed somewhat longer absence from barracks; they would be allowed wider points within which they could wander when off duty; and, altogether, their life would be made pleasanter; while all the essential conditions of an efficient Service would be fulfilled. The Royal Irish Constabulary were now raised to a position above that of the average County Forces in England and Scotland, and received higher pensions than the Scotch Force. The Metropolitan Police Force of Dublin was before in the last class but one; but these changes, small as they appeared to be, had placed it in the highest class next to that of the London Police Force. He was anxious that it should be known that these proposals had been considered with very great care; they had been examined and revised by men who were extremely conversant with the organization of Services, both Civil and Military; and the intention of the Government was that the proposed changes should be both permanent and final. They believed they would attract good men of the class from which the Dublin Police and Royal Irish Constabulary had been drawn hitherto with such very good results, and that when they had been so attracted they would remain contented with their position. For these reasons he trusted the House would assent to the introduction of the Bill.
§ MR. GRAYsaid, that, no with standing the great care, attention, and labour, on the part of the t we Commissions which had been appointed by Her Majesty's Government to consider the question of the pay and discipline of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force, and the great attention which Her Majesty's Government had also given to the circumstances, they were brought face to face with the certain knowledge that the scheme of the Commissioners, which had, practically, been adopted by the Government, had not given satisfaction to those interested in it. They knew that abundantly by 1948 the communications which had flooded the public Press since the publication of the Report. Looking at the question, however, from the broader standpoint of the interest of the men themselves, they were forced to the conclusion that attention was not paid to the complaints of those persons, until they had been forced by methods of a very disagreeable character upon the notice of the Government. All must know that the grievances of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and the vexation and worry to which the Metropolitan Police of Dublin had been subjected for years, had been pressed on the attention of the Government over and over again, and treated with absolute contempt. It was only when the Constabulary struck at a certain place, and threatened to strike in other parts of the country, that their complaints were attended to; and it was only when the Police struck in Dublin that it was discovered that the men were subject to all sorts of vexatious fines and treated like children. He thought it was a lamentable thing to confess that, even in the case of their own servants, not the slightest attention or respect could be had from the Government for claims now acknowledged to be legitimate, until those claims had been pressed upon them by something very little, if at all, short of physical force. But there were other classes of men in the Government Service in Ireland who had similar grievances to complain of. The prison officials had been subject, for the last t we or three years, to the same strain as were the Police and Constabulary; and they had similar grievances to complain of, both with regard to pay, hours of labour, and general treatment, as the officials holding analogous positions in England. But they could not organize or communicate with the Government, without being discharged one by one—they could not strike; and their grievances were therefore set aside, and nothing had been, or probably would be, done for them, until they made use of the methods which had been adopted by the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police. With regard to the latter Force, he thought something more was required in reference to the pay of the men than what he might call the re-arrangement of bookkeeping proposed by the Government. He gathered, from the figures 1949 of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that the total increase in the pay of the Police in Dublin was to be the sum of £2,000 a-year. He had already heard so much, and it was no wonder that dissatisfaction existed in the Force, when it was found that, after all the outcry they had heard, this paltry sum was proposed. Then the right hon. Gentleman told them that the Pension List, which amounted to £22,000 a-year under the present system, would he increased, but subsequently reduced. But here, he (Mr. Gray) was unable to follow the right hon. Gentleman. He could not get at what the new Pension List was to be, so as to know the total amount that would be given in the way of increase. The younger men, of course, composed the enormous majority of the Force, and they found that nothing was to be done for them; they were the men the Government had to look to most; and they were just the men likely to throw up their profession, and go to America, or to join in any movement to get any matters redressed that they believed they had a right to complain of. But the Government had given them no redress. They had devised a system which would give a certain minority of the Force a small increase of pay and allowances, and they had relaxed, to some extent, the iron discipline which was even more vexatious than deprivation of pay; but as to the vast majority of the men, both of the Constabulary and Police, it appeared to him that they were going to pay them little more than the compliment of having appointed a Commission to inquire into their grievances; leaving them, in fact, in nearly the same position as they were in before. Again, he did not think anything like a fair comparison could be instituted between the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force and the Police Forces in England. The men in England were exceedingly well paid—both the Police in London and in the Provincial boroughs—for the duties they had to perform. As a rule, their duties in the Provinces were by no means irksome; everyone in England looked upon the Police as the friends of the community; their duties in the rural districts and in the towns were simply the detection of crime, and so they won the goodwill of the population. Now, the 1950 duties of the men of the Constabulary and the Police in Dublin were of a totally different character—they were of an odious character, and repugnant to the feelings of the men themselves. He himself, some time ago, had read some letters received from members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, describing the duties which they had to perform in the case of evictions. They stated how their hearts were wrung by the terrible scenes of suffering they witnessed in the performance of their duties connected with the eviction of their neighbours and others. They felt these to be most repugnant, for they were all sprung from the small farmer class; and, therefore, he said that, if such duties were cast upon them, they ought to be paid extra for the work. There was, then, clearly no comparison between the Constabulary and Police Forces in Ireland and those in England. With reference to the Metropolitan Police, the right hon. Gentleman said they cost already £53,000 a-year, which sum, for certain purposes, was to be reduced to £46,000; and this he proposed to increase by the sum of £2,000 a-year. He (Mr. Gray) regarded that sum as extravagant, and thought that the Bill should be utilized for the purpose of putting the expenditure incurred for the Police into a more reasonable form than the present. The Dublin Metropolitan Police were employed for a double purpose. They were used as police, and also as a species of semi-military force, for the purposes of the Government. He was informed that the tax upon the people of Dublin for the Police Force amounted to 1s. 2d. in the pound, a sum which he did not think was paid in any town in England. And not only were the citizens of Dublin mulcted in that sum, but they had nothing whatever to do with the control of the Police; and when this was complained of the reply of the Government was—"You do not contribute anything like the amount you ought to pay; you ought to thank us for taking the burden off your shoulders." As a member of the Corporation of Dublin, he (Mr. Gray) could assure the House that this question affected the people of Dublin very keenly, because it touched their pockets; and he contended that they should be allowed to maintain their own Police as a Municipal Force, and that the Government should maintain, for their own purposes, 1951 a force which should be paid for out of Imperial funds. In England the Police of every town and district were under the control of the local authorities; and they were also, for the purposes of the Public Health Act, under the control of the sanitary authorities. But they in Dublin had no control of the Police in that respect. When necessary, they had to apply to the Government for a certain number of police for sanitary duty; and the reply to their application was—"Certainly; if you pay for thorn." They had, therefore, to pay not only 1s. 2d. in the pound for the maintenance of the Force, but they had to pay over again when they wanted them to discharge any sanitary duties. The sanitary work of the city was interfered with, because they had no Police Force under the control of the Civic Authorities. It was, perhaps, useless for him to suggest that the Corporation of Dublin were fit to discharge the minor duties which local authorities were entrusted with in England and Scotland. If the Government did not think they were to be trusted, let them keep as many police in Dublin as they pleased; but let the citizens of Dublin maintain their own Police Force. The present system not only touched them in their pockets, but in their health and lives. The Lord Provost of Edinburgh once asked him (Mr. Gray) if the Corporation of Dublin had the control of the Police of the city; and, on his replying in the negative, he said—"You will never get Dublin into a proper sanitary condition until you have. Every policeman in Edinburgh is a sanitary officer." In conclusion, he ventured to hope the point he had suggested was a practicable one, and that, as it concerned the City of Dublin, it would receive some share of attention.
§ MR. MOOREsaid, he desired to point out that there was no provision made in the Bill for the officers of the Force. During the last year or so a large sum of money had been allocated to the rank and file; and he could see no reason why the officers in the Service should not experience an improvement in their position. The officers had had to suffer great hardships, which the men under their command could not be said to have shared with them. Comparatively speaking, the position of the officers was much inferior to that of the men, in regard to pensions as well as pay; and this was a matter to which 1952 it would be wise for the Government to devote attention. There was no better way of rewarding the Force than by increasing their pensions; and, in that respect, he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Trevelyan) on the whole scheme of his Bill. The scheme for increasing the payments in regard to long and continued service introduced the element of domesticity, which seemed to be the most valuable element in the Bill. The scale of pensions of the officers required revision; and it should always be borne in mind that, by increasing the pensions, they gained t we very important advantages. They, in the first place, gained increased efficiency, as they did by all increase of pay; but, more than that, they offered an inducement to old men who were no longer fit for the Service to retire. He hoped this question would be considered by the Government. He endorsed all that had been said by the hon. Gentleman who had preceded him (Mr. Gray) as to there having been, throughout all these transactions, one pre-eminent argument—namely, the argument of clamour—the argument—"Only make sufficient noise, and you will obtain all you require." The officers were not in a position to follow this advice; and he hoped the Government would not put too severe a strain upon them, but would inquire into their case, without requiring them to do that which would be unbecoming or unsuitable to their rank in the Service. There was one point in the right hon. Gentleman's observations he had heard with anxiety—namely, that it was considered an important concession to the men that their wives should be allowed to take part in businesses. The House should be given clearly to understand whether it was intended to allow the wives of constables to hold licences for the sale of spirituous liquors.
MR. O'BRIENsaid, there was one point he should like to have made clear; and that was, whether the Bill proposed to make alterations in the higher organization of the Force, or whether it was confined entirely to improving the condition of the men?
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, the measure made no alteration whatsoever in what they might call the higher organization of the Forces. Those officers who, in the Army, might be described as commissioned officers, were not at all affected by the alterations.
§ MR. SEXTONThe Assistant Commissioner is abolished?
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, that was so. He might fairly say there was no change in the higher organization of the Forces, and no change that was effected in that higher organization would affect the pay and pensions of the men.
§ MR. CALLANasked whether there was any attempt made in the Bill to change the present system of promotion?
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, that promotion would be more advanced by good and regular conduct. An important step had been taken in the Constabulary for the purpose of equalizing promotion, and removing any suspicion of unfairness.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, the House heard a great deal about keeping down the general expenses of the country. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Courtney) was in his place. Had he been consulted about this Bill? That hon. Member and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to take into account the consequences of the measure next year, or the year after; and therefore, perhaps, it would be as well for them to offer an opinion about the Bill before it was pushed much further. There was a great tendency on the part of Members of Parliament, when these Motions came up, to make themselves exceedingly pleasant at the public expense, by allowing advances of salary to men and officers of all kinds. He (Mr. Biggar) was inclined to think that the Police were liberally paid at present, and he did not think this Bill was called for. He was disposed to offer to it as strong an opposition as he possibly could.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. TEEVELYAN, Mr. COURTNEY, and Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE.
§ Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 171.]
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, he proposed to put down the next stage for Monday.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, that before the Bill was proposed for second reading, he, and many other Irish Members, would like to see it in print.
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, that if hon. Members thought they would not be prepared to take the second reading on Monday, he should be quite willing to defer that stage until Tuesday.