§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he can name a day on which he will give facilities for the discussion of the Motion on the affairs of the Transvaal of which the Eight honourable Member for East Gloucestershire has given Notice?
MR. GLADSTONEMr. Speaker, I stated yesterday, in answer to a Question on tills subject, that I was not prepared to enter upon the consideration of any matter connected with the bringing forward of the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman until I knew what was to become of the debate to-night, upon the Motion to be proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham. (Mr. Gorst). That Motion stands upon the Votes, and I am aware of no reason why we should not proceed with the discussion of it; and if we are to proceed with that discussion, I must adhere certainly to the answer I gave last night.
MR. GORSTPerhaps, after the statement of the Prime Minister, the House will allow me one word of personal explanation. Immediately that I heard on Saturday last that the right hon. Baronet the Member for East Gloucestershire (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) intended to move his Motion, I indicated to him by letter that, in the event of the Government giving a day for the discussion of that Motion, I should be ready to waive the Motion of which I had given Notice. That information was conveyed to the Government on Saturday last.
MR. GORSTThen on Monday morning. I understood from the answer given by the Prime Minister to the right hon. Baronet's Question yesterday that Her Majesty's Government were not prepared to give a day until after Easter for the discussion of that Motion. I carefully listened to the answer of the Prime Minister, and I gathered from it that if my Motion were withdrawn to-night, he would then be willing to name an early day after Easter for the discussion of that Motion. [Mr. GLADSTONE: No, ho!] I therefore beg to say that, if it 372 will remove any difficulty on the part of the Government, I shall be perfectly ready to abstain from moving the Motion of which I have given Notice for to-night, upon the express understanding that Her Majesty's Government will name a day early after Easter for the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman. In the event of the Government not naming any such day, I shall persevere with my Motion.
MR. GLADSTONESir, I believe that to-day I have simply repeated what I stated yesterday. I am aware of no public reason why the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gorst) should not come on. In point of fact, it relates to events which are recent, which may be said to be authenticated, and which are of an importance that deserves the attention of this House; whereas, as far as I understand, the other and somewhat larger Motion of which Notice has been given by the right hon. Baronet, it is rather in the nature of a re-trial of the general questions of policy which were discussed and considered during the year before last. I may say also, as regards the Business of the House, that it is in a state of the utmost pressure. [Lord JOHN MANNERS: Oh, oh!] Yes, Sir; if the noble Lord does not know it is in a state of pressure I may acquaint him of it; and I do not think that that pressure is likely to be diminished after Easter. On the double ground, therefore, of the nature of the question and the Business of the House, it appears to me that if the hon. and learned Member for Chatham is in a position—as I believe he will be—to introduce his Motion at an early and reasonable hour in the evening, he may go forward with it.
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHSir, I should like, in the first place, to say, in reference to what fell from my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Gorst), that I have no complaint to make as regards his action in this matter; but that, in regard to the reply of the Prime Minister, I beg to give Notice that on Thursday next I shall repeat the Question which my right hon. Friend (Sir Stafford Northcote) has addressed to him this evening. I trust that I may then receive from him a more satisfactory answer, because I may venture to point out to the Prime Minister that my Motion is a direct challenge to Her Majesty's Government on a most important question of their Colonial policy of the last 373 two years—a Motion which, I believe, will be supported by the great body of the Opposition. I trust I may then hear that the right hon. Gentleman will give me facilities for bringing it on. If he does not, I can only say, with regret, that I shall be compelled to ask hon. Members who take an interest in the subject to aid me in obtaining, if necessary, by the use of the Forms of the House, and even at the risk of some delay in Government Business, those facilities for the discussion and the decision of this House upon a fair and legitimate challenge, which, so far as I know, has never yet been refused by any Government, but which, on the contrary, I believe all previous Governments have not only felt it their duty, but have been anxious to afford all facilities for on such an occasion.
MR. GLADSTONESir, I shall not be tempted either by the threats of the right hon. Gentleman, which I perfectly understand, and which are by no means the first intimations which have been perceptible to us with regard to the course of Public Business, nor shall I be tempted by the interruption of a peculiar character—["Oh, oh!"]—which has been made by the hon. Member opposite. [Cries of "Which?" and "Order!"] I do not wish to make any personal reference. [Renewed interruption.] I will say, after that last passage, to the hon. Member himself—I do not know where he sits for—I say I shall not be tempted by those threats to deviate from what I have recently stated—namely, that it appears to me that the question of the Transvaal, as it is touched by the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman, will be more conveniently handled by me with respect to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman after we see what will become of the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman has contrived to introduce into an intimation, which I conceive ought to have been a mere Notice, a very large amount of accusatory and historical matter. Well, I suppose, in strictness, I should be entitled to refer to that accusatory and historical matter; but I must do that which is often obligatory upon those whose first duty is the promotion and expedition of Public Business; I must allow the assertions of the right hon. Gentleman, which I dis- 374 pute, and which I shall be prepared to refute, to stand uncontradicted until the time comes when, if he pleases, he will revive his menaces, and we can deal properly with them.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERasked the hon. and learned Member for Chatham, after what hour he would not bring forward his Motion?
MR. GORST,in reply, said, his only motive in bringing the Motion forward was a desire to bring under the consideration of the House the very grave position of the Native Tribes in the territory bordering on the Transvaal. He did not think that object would be obtained if he brought it forward at a late hour; and, therefore, he would not bring it forward unless he was able to do so before 10 o'clock.