§ LORD EUSTACE CECILasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether his attention had been called, as early as Monday last, to the following passage, page 67, paragraph 49, in the Further Correspondence issued on Wednesday upon affairs in the Transvaal, and vouched for by Mr. Rutherford, secretary to the British Resident to this effect:
These four children, Khate, Tapiesu, Pheta, Mentshe, were wounded; four others were killed by the Boers. It is true this was during the war; but they being children, their ages from 9 to 16, and as they were unarmed, and were herding calves only, it was against our laws to kill such or any cowherds if they do not resist capture. The Boers know this rule well;and, whether his attention was called to page 74, of the same Report, Annexure II, headed "list of murders committed by the Boers," detailing the murder of nine old and infirm men and one woman, and testified by the Chief Montsoia and three witnesses; and, if not, why the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies has failed to put the House in possession of information which must have been well known at the Colonial Office? I wish to make a short explanation of the reason why I put the Question. On Monday last statements were made by the Prime Minister to the effect that he had no authentic information respecting the murderous outrages committed by the Boers; while the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies declared that the facts were already in the possession of the House.
MR. GLADSTONEThe noble Lord is now entering upon controversial matter. It is impossible for me to hear these 1905 statements without answering them. I wish then to know, Sir, if the noble Lord is in Order in making them?
§ MR. SPEAKERThe noble Lord is in Order in referring to such matters as relate to the Question on the Paper, and are necessary to explain it; but he is not entitled to enter into any controversial matter.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILI have no desire to raise any question upon which there is likely to be controversy. I only wish to ascertain whether certain facts which have a bearing upon this Question are correct.
MR. GLADSTONESir—[Cries of "Order!"] I am speaking to Order. The facts which the noble Lord began to state were of a highly controversial character; and what I want to ask is, whether it would be agreeable to the House that I should enter into them in replying to the Question of the noble Lord?
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILI trust that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to make a full answer to my Question, and I shall not be deterred from asking it by any reply which he may be pleased to make to it. I wish only to add that at the time the Blue Book was—
§ MR. SPEAKERThe noble Lord is now referring to a former debate during the present Session, and is clearly out of Order.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILI have no desire to refer to any former debate at all. But, perhaps, my Question is already so clear that the House will understand what I mean. I will therefore put the Question to the Prime Minister as it stands on the Paper.
§ LORD GEOEGE HAMILTONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he was aware on Friday last that there was in the possession of the Government the official Report upon the South-West of the Transvaal by Mr. Rutherford, Secretary to the British Resident, Prætoria, of which the following are extracts (page 56 [Transvaal, in continuation of C. 3419]):—
It is just impossible to record in a report, necessarily limited to its special subject, what anyone who will visit those parts of the country will see day by day. All observance, nay, all sense of law, of right, of reason, is being daily increasingly obscured and rejected. To see land, property, cattle, is to lust for and seize them.1906I have long since much modified any extreme negrophilist views I may have held in earlier years, hut not believing that the 'final cause' of the existence of Natives in such immense numbers in South Africa is only that they should be wiped out; and believing, on the contrary, that the problem of their being allowed to continue to exist beneficially to others and becoming improved themselves is one that can be solved, I turn with sad repulsion from what I have seen and otherwise know to exist.Page 67,The Chief (Mankoroane) then pressed me, just as had been done by Montsiosa and his Council, to give them some information and some hope of intervention on their behalf, pressed hard upon me how unfalteringly they had stood by the English and respected the English laws and line, and 'the Queen's word;and, if it is the intention of the Government to make any determined effort to stop the atrocities and blood-guiltiness of which they now have authentic official information?
MR. GLADSTONESir, with respect to the important and painful details that are communicated in the Questions put by the hon. Members, I may state that these details reached this country during my absence from it, and they were not within my knowledge at the time I spoke on Monday. At the same time, I must observe that these Questions have no connection with the debate on Monday last. My observation in the debate of Monday last, that the information before the House was not authentic information, referred to what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst). On Monday last, we were debating matters supposed to be connected with the conduct of the Boer Government within Transvaal territory, and falling under these provisions of the Convention which refer to the Transvaal territory. The important citations contained in these two Questions differ, I believe, in all these respects. They relate to the acts of independent persons and to another frontier—the opposite and most distant frontier of that territory—namely, the South-West, instead of, I believe, the North-East, and are transactions purporting to have occurred beyond the Transvaal Frontier, and falling under different conditions and different considerations altogether. I may, perhaps, say that my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ashley), in his speech during the debate on the Address, signified distinctly to the House that the Govern- 1907 ment were in possession of painful information relating to the atrocities committed in that region. With regard to the Question of the noble Lord, these are matters of very great importance, that are receiving the careful attention of Her Majesty's Government, with the view of a prompt decision as to the course which it might be their duty to take.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILWill Her Majesty's Government state the decision when they come to it to the House?
MR. GLADSTONEAs I understand the matter, the probability is that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gorst) will be able to make a Motion on this subject on Tuesday, which may afford a convenient opportunity; but if he should not be able to fulfil that intention, it will be quite proper that the Government should state on a very early date—and I hope not later than the day mentioned—substantially the course that they intend to pursue.
MR. GORSTgave Notice, that he would then move that this House regrets that Her Majesty's Government have so long ignored the proceedings of the Transvaal Government in the cruel and atrocious attacks made upon the two chiefs, Mankoroane, and Montsioa; and that this House is of opinion that energetic steps should be taken to secure the strict observance by the Transvaal Government of the Convention of 1881, so that these chiefs may be preserved from the destruction with which they are threatened.