CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS. (Hansard, 5 March 1883)

§ MR. BOURKE
said, they could not be expected to pass this Vote without making one or two remarks upon it. It involved a large additional sum for telegrams sent to and from the Foreign Office, which were referred to as consequent on the state of things on the Continent. That was clearly a mis-statement or euphemism. The telegrams had not been sent in consequence of the state of things on the Continent, but in consequence of the state of things in Egypt. As he objected altogether to the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Egypt, he naturally objected to this very large addition for telegrams. It had often been said that the Expenditure of the country must depend upon the foreign policy of the Government, and this was an instance of the foreign policy of the Government leading to a very large expenditure. There was not only a sum of £6,000, but later on in the Estimate there was one of £16,000 in addition; so that, in fact, the policy of Her Majesty' Government, in regard to Egypt had imposed on the country, in the single item of telegrams to and from the Foreign Office, the sum of £22,000, in addition to the ordinary Estimate. He could not part with this question without some protest against this additional sum and against this expenditure having become necessary on account of the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Egypt.

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE
said, he did not complain of his right 1553 hon. Friend's criticism—in fact, he had anticipated that it would be necessary to explain to the Committee the large additional sum that was asked for. One part of his right hon. Friend's criticism he admitted the justiceof—namely, that in which he had said it would have been better if some other word had been used than "Continent," or some further word added, because, no doubt, the expenditure under this head had been caused by the telegrams which had been sent in regard to affairs in Egypt. No doubt, in common parlance, the word "Continent" was rather a mistake. He might be allowed to say to the Committee that, perhaps indirectly, some little good might arise out of what he admitted to be a heavy and unusual item for telegrams in the Supplementary Estimate and in the total Estimate for the present financial year. The large item had naturally caused the Secretary of State to devote his attention to the subject of telegrams to and from the Foreign Office. A close examination had been made of the subject, and he was in hopes—although he could not pledge himself on the matter—that it would be found possible to bring about a considerable reduction in future years—a reduction below what might be called the ordinary Estimates. With this explanation he sincerely hoped the Committee would grant the sum asked for.

§ SIR HENRY HOLLAND
said, it was satisfactory to hear that the Foreign Office were looking into this matter, as they had promised to do so for several years. But the noble Lord had not dealt with a point on which he (Sir Henry Holland) and others entertained a strong feeling. The Foreign Office went on putting down as an original Estimate an amount which they knew, from the experience of past years, must be far below the sum which would be required for telegraphic expenses. The Estimate was £7,000, and the Supplementary sum was £6,000; and if they looked at the Diplomatic Department, they would find the original Estimate for telegraphing £5,000, and the Supplementary Estimate £16,500. He had found fault with the Estimate on these grounds last year. Granting that the Foreign Office had every desire to reduce the expenditure on telegrams, he should not be satisfied until the original 1554 Estimate bore some proportion to the expense likely to be incurred during the year.

§ MR. H. S. NORTHCOTE
wished to make a practical suggestion. Would it not be possible to reduce the expenditure by somewhat curtailing the practice of repeating telegrams that they received to their Ambassadors abroad? The practice used to be that when a telegram came from a particular Embassy to repeat it to all the others. That was a system which had been started, and, to his mind, had been considerably abused, and he thought a considerable amount of saving might be effected in that direction.

§ SIR H.DRUMMOND WOLFF
wished to know how it was that there was such a discrepancy between the original Estimate and the amount to be voted? There was no reason why all these items in the original Estimate should not be considerably nearer the mark.

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE
said, he did not know whether it would be regular for him on this Vote to discuss the Vote referred to; but, if the Committee would accord him permission to do so, it might, perhaps, save time. There could be no doubt that the chief field for reduction lay in the telegrams sent to the Foreign Office rather than in those sent from it; and the Secretary of State, in order to bring about a reduction in the expenditure in a quarter where he believed it could be reduced, was keeping a much closer watch than used to be kept on the telegrams sent from our Agents abroad. The Vote under which this matter would come would be found lower down the list of Votes. The suggestion of the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Northcote) was an exceedingly useful one. It was one which was not altogether new to Her Majesty's Government; but it was very important, and doubly important coming, as it did, from one who had a special knowledge of the matter. He could assure the hon. Member that this matter, amongst others, was receiving attention.

§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS
said, the noble Lord had not answered the question which had been put to him—namely, why, after the experience the Foreign Office had had in former years, they should come for such a ridiculously small sum, knowing that they would have to ask for twice as much in the end?

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE
admitted that was a question which must be answered. He thought he had answered it, because he had pointed out that the large excess this year over the Estimate was owing to circumstances which were not foreseen when the amount was fixed, those circumstances being the condition of affairs in Egypt. If it had not been for the state of things in Egypt he did not think they would have had to come for such a large sum. It was true that a complaint of this kind had arisen in former years; but he firmly believed that there would not have been ground for it this year but for the Egyptian complications.

§ MR. BOURKE
said, that, in justice to the permanent officials of the Foreign Office who prepared these Estimates, it must be said that the Estimates originally framed were as nearly correct as possible, and the additional amount was entirely due to the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Egypt. As to telegrams in general, he believed that the more there were received and sent within a certain degree of reasonableness the better and the safer for the country, for he believed it was highly desirable that Her Majesty's Government should be well informed, generally speaking, as to the condition of affairs abroad. He did not complain of the general Estimate, but of the excess, which was entirely owing to the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Egypt.

EARL PERCY
said, the amount altogether was greater, with one exception, than it had been for many years past.

CAPTAIN AYLMER
said, some explanation of this Vote was necessary, and if it was not satisfactory, he should feel it his duty to move a reduction of the Vote by £3,300. It was stated that "the excess is caused mainly by the increase in the number of inquiries." That was very vague and required explanation.

§ MR. J. HOLMS
admitted that the explanation was very vague. Inquiries had increased in reference to load lines and like points. He thought the Committee would allow that such inquiries were very necessary.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
said, he thought he was correct in saying that the Board 1556 of Trade had a paid solicitor and a solicitor's staff. Was it to be understood that the charge of £21,600 for Law Charges was a charge outside the cost of the regular staff of officials which, no doubt, advised the President of the Board of Trade, and conducted all prosecutions and, he presumed, all inquiries? If it was a charge apart from the regular staff, it certainly represented a large charge indeed for additional assistance.

§ MR. J. HOLMS
said, the inquiries were from time to time increasing in number, and the ordinary staff could not carry out all of them.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
asked if he was to understand that the ordinary staff was paid for making inquiries? It did seem extraordinary there should be a charge of £21,600 for Law Charges which wore altogether independent of the staff of the Board of Trade.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
said, he did not think it would be found, on investigation, that this excess was caused mainly by the increase in the number of inquiries. He imagined the Committee on Public Accounts would find, under the Sub-head I, that there were a number of things which could hardly be classed as inquiries. Last year the Comptroller and Auditor General remarked upon the excess of this particular item, and, amongst other things, he said— There is, as far as I am aware, no Parliamentary authority for sanctioning these Votes. He (Mr. A. O'Connor) made no doubt there was in the item of £3,300 provision made for matter which had never been set in the Estimates of the House, and which, in due time, would be noticed by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his Report. As to the Board of Trade, he wished to point out that it was incumbent on the Board, under several Acts of Parliament, to furnish a number of Returns with regard to piers and so forth. None of such Returns had been furnished as yet; in fact, every Return which ought to have been furnished this year was now in arrear. Last year this arrear was more noticeable in the Department of the Board of Trade than in any other. Now, when the Board of Trade was coming forward asking the House to give it increased powers with regard to trade and bankruptcy, there seemed little chance of the 1557 Business being got through unless a very stringent hold of the Department was kept by the House. He would ask whether any steps had been taken to get rid of the arrears in regard to Returns?

§ MR. J. HOLMS
said, he had placed a number of Papers on the Table of the House in regard to Fishery Harbours and Piers. Some of them were of a local character.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
said, he was sure the hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Holms) would understand he did not wish to press him unduly or improperly when he said that if there was a professional staff belonging to a Department, that professional staff ought to discharge the duties of the Department. Surely the legal staff of the Board of Trade was large enough to be able to conduct the business without coming to Parliament for a Vote of such an enormous amount as £21,600 for assistance.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES),
remarked that these duties only fell on the permanent staff to a very small degree. Many local inquiries had been lately held, and much expense outside the Office necessarily incurred.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
said, that a Judge had to go down into the country from London. If that was so, he could not see why an official of the Board of Trade should not.

§ MR. MONK
said, he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury could give some explanation of this Vote. He thought there had been a Resolution passed in the House to the effect that the Charity Commission was to pay its own expenses. The Resolution was not passed in the present Parliament, but it was understood the subject would be considered by this Government. It seemed strange that this Vote should come up now on the Supplementary Estimates, at a time at which they could not discuss the principle involved.

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, the Vote related to a particular branch of endowed schools, and it was to provide for three months' salaries of the officers.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
asked, what was the intention of the Government with regard to the power of the 1558 Charity Commissioners as Endowed Schools Commissioners?

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, he was afraid that was a question the Committee would not wish to enter upon now.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
asked if it was intended to introduce a Bill on the subject this Session?

§ MR. COURTNEY
could not say.

§ SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS
said, he thought it might be very properly asked why all these salaries and expenses were not thought of before the original Estimate was made? This Vote was for salaries, and allowances, and incidental personal expenses, all of which must have been perfectly well known at the time the original Estimate was produced.

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, the Vote was due to an automatic increase in the number of candidates. If there was an increased number of candidates, provision must be made for them.

§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF
asked whether competitive examination had been introduced in the Foreign Office and Diplomatic Service, or whether it was still close?

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE
replied, that vacancies, both in the Foreign Office and Diplomatic Service, were now filled up after competition among candidates nominated by the Secretary of State. As a general rule, it might be said that there were six competitors for each vacancy.

§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT
said, it was half-past 1, and he, therefore, moved to report Progress.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)
said, he would not raise any opposition to the Motion.

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
asked when the Estimates would be printed and circulated? He did not think it reasonable they should be asked to consider the Estimates immediately they were put in their hands. There was a great delay 1559 in the production of Papers, and therefore they should receive the Estimates some days before they were called upon to vote them.