HC Deb 29 June 1883 vol 280 cc1984-2002
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

I hope, Sir, I shall not have to detain the House at this late hour (12.40) at any considerable length, while I state briefly the reasons which have induced the Government to introduce the Bill of which I have given Notice. I do not think it is necessary to go into the ancient history of this question, because most Members interested in the matter know the history as well, or better, than I do. I shall not go further back than the year 1878, when the late Government introduced a Bill for the appointment of an additional Under Secretary. That Bill was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for SouthWest Lancashire (Sir R. Assheton Cross), and the then Lord Advocate; and I take it for granted that, though that Bill did not ultimately go forward, it indicated in the view both of the Scotch Members, and probably of the public in Scotland, and of the late Administration, that it was desirable that there should be some change at least in the former and ancient system of administration of Scotch affairs. I also gather from the proposal to have an additional Under Secretary for Scotland that it was considered by the late Administration that it was desirable, besides the able professional assistance which the Lord Advocate is always in a position to give on all legal matters, that there should also be some official dealing more especially with every question arising in Scotch administration. That is a mere speculation on the meaning of the Bill when it was introduced, for there does not seem to have been any full discussion upon it. That was the state of things when the present Administration came into Office; and when I became responsible for the conduct of Scotch affairs, I found that the same sentiment prevailed, I will not say among all, but certainly among a considerable number of, Scotch Members, that there should be some change in the arrangements with reference to Scotch Business. It is a matter of public notoriety that a Memorial signed by a large number—I forget the exact num- ber—of Scotch Members upon the subject of an alteration in the arrangements of Scotch Business has been presented to the Prime Minister. I, for my part, never felt at all averse to the consideration of the question from that point of view. I do not think that anybody who occupies the position of Home Secretary will ever be grasping of business, or have a great objection to be relieved of any of the multifarious or multitudinous business with which that Office is considerably oppressed. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, I approached the consideration of this question with something more, perhaps, than an open mind. There was another circumstance which impressed my mind as to the necessity and expediency of somewhat different arrangements; and it was the peculiar fact that, for a certain period immediately after the election of the present Parliament, there happened to be no single Member of the House of Commons upon either side of the House who was capable of holding the Office of Lord Advocate. That interposed a considerable difficulty in the ancient method of administration of Scotch affairs. Of course, the Lord Advocate must be a lawyer, and there was only in the last Election one lawyer elected out of the whole of Scotland, and that distinguished Gentleman, on asking reelection, lost his seat. That situation has occurred in former times, and very often you may be reduced by the necessity of selection from only one Profession into difficulties in Scotch administration. I do not believe that the desire for change has arisen from any dissatisfaction or discontent with the manner in which Scotch Business has been traditionally transacted by the persons who have held the high Office of Lord Advocate. The successive Lord Advocates of Scotland have conducted Scotch affairs very satisfactorily to the Empire generally, and to Scotland in particular. That such a sentiment did exist is shown by the Bill of 1878. That sentiment exists in the minds of a good many Scotch Members, and I take it for granted that is the opinion of the country from which they are sent. That being the state of feeling upon the subject, Her Majesty's Government wore extremely willing to do something to satisfy this sentiment; and they took a course which, I believe, gave great satisfaction to the people of Scot- land. They adopted, to a certain extent, the plan of their Predecessors—that is to say that, though they did not create an additional Secretary of State, they made a very distinguished Scotchman, Lord Rosebery, Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, with the particular view of his transacting Scotch affairs. In my opinion that experiment was highly successful. So far as I was able to observe it, the affairs of Scotland were never transacted by three more able men than Lord Rosebery as Under Secretary in the Home Office, the Lord Advocate, and the Solicitor General for Scotland. I venture to say from my official experience, and having regard to the business that had. to be done, there never was a Department more adequately managed. For my own part, if that state of things could have been continued I should have been glad indeed. Lord Rosebery said to me—"You have thrown the reins of Scotch Business upon our necks." It is quite true, when I got men so competent and so conversant with Scotch affairs, I naturally gave them entire confidence, and I believe they conducted Scotch Business exceedingly well. I should have been extremely willing that affairs should have gone on upon that footing. When I say that affairs were conducted in that manner, I do not at all wish to exclude the responsibility of the Secretary of State. There will always be, and there must always be, in the transaction of any Department, some questions which must be decided by the Chief of the Department. I am bound to say the number of questions which have arisen in Scotland during my administration are singularly few; but there are questions such as the method of dealing with the crofters in the Western Highlands, matters which never can be decided by even any Minister of a Department, but which naturally must be determined upon the responsibility of the whole Government. I therefore distinguish between that class of questions and those which are questions of a purely administrative character. Well, there were, however, difficulties in continuing a state of things which, I believe, for all practical purposes, was as good a state of things as ever was devised, and I do not believe that whatever you do, you will ever get the affairs of Scotland better conducted than they were on that system. But it was impossible to continue that state of things, for two reasons. Lord Rosebery was an admirable Under Secretary for Scotland; and although the Business of Scotland perfectly admitted of his doing very competently and fully the duties of Under Secretary for English affairs also, still there was an inconvenience in not having the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department in the House of Commons. I and the other Ministers always felt that was au inconvenience; and, consequently, the arrangement was of a temporary rather than of a permanent character. When attention was called to the subject in the House of Commons, I was not in a position to deny that it was highly expedient that there should be an Under Secretary of State for the home Department in the House of Commons; and, therefore, we had to consider how the matter was to be dealt with. Now, the matter could have been dealt with, no doubt, in the manner proposed by the late Administration—that is, by the creation of au additional Under Secretary of State to take charge of Scottish affairs. Well, Sir, I am not at all prepared to say that, for administrative purposes, that would not have been a satisfactory solution. But I find that the sentiment of Scotch Members, so far as I could gather it, and the sentiment existing in Scotland, was not favourable to such a solution as that. It was thought that an Under Secretary was not adequate altogether for the representation of the affairs of Scotland, and that opinion was very strongly held by Lord Rosebery himself. I am bound to say that, coming from such a quarter and with such weight, it had very considerable influence with me and with Her Majesty's Government. If you want to satisfy the desire of a people you must give them what they want, and not what they do not want; and I confess that, as far as I was able to gather the opinion of those who represent Scotland, it was that such an arrangement as that to which I have referred would not be favourably received. Then, what was the course which should be taken? Well, if you were not to have an additional Under Secretary of State for Scotland, what were you to have? I do not think that there is anybody who professed that there should be a Secretary of State for Scotland. I have not found anybody who understands the matter at all, or who has any cognizance of the character and amount of the Business to be transacted, who supports such a proposal as that. Therefore, of course, the Government are not about to propose the creation of a Secretary of State for Scotland. If there is not to be a Secretary of State because it is too much, and if there is not to be an Under Secretary of State because it is too little, we must seek sonic) middle ground—some tertium quid which will satisfy the feelings and sentiments of the case. We have got precedent and analogy to follow in this case, and that is a creation which has been found very useful in England for local administration—the administration of the Local Government Board. Everyone knows that that is a Department which is of higher rank and of greater independence than the situation of an Under Secretary, and local questions are dealt with by that body. I only use the word analogy because I do not speak at all of identity in this case, for it is quite plain that the scope of the administration of Scotch affairs would be larger than the administration of Business under the Local Government Board in England. Well, then, what the Government have to propose to the House is the creation of a Minister who shall deal with the local administration of Scotland in all such branches as those that are now dealt with by the Secretary of State. I say local administration, because I exclude from that all those matters which belong to law, to justice, and to the administration of the Prerogative of Mercy—questions which, in the opinion of the Government, must still be reserved for the Secretary of State, acting upon the advice of the Lord Advocate. I think it is quite impossible to separate the administration of questions of that character from the Office in which they have been hitherto administered; but I will not attempt, at this time of the night, to go into this matter, because when the Bill roaches future stages it can be fully discussed. The Government have had to consider what is to be included in the functions of this administration. I have spoken of all the local matters which are at present within the Office of the Secretary of State; and, with the exception of those I have referred to—namely, law, justice, and the Prerogatives of Mercy, and higher Executive interposition on such questions that might arise as to peace and order, and the necessity of the employment of Military Forces—all Common Law questions of administration will remain with the Secretary of State as at present, acting on the advice of the Lord Advocate. There is one other matter to which I should refer, not for the purpose of discussing it now, but merely to state' the view of the Government upon it—that is, with reference to the question of education. That, as the House is aware, does not belong to the functions of the Secretary of State, but to the Education Department. I have had the opportunity of consulting those who are best acquainted with the subject of Scotch education, and I find that they agree almost unanimously in the opinion that it would be a great mistake to sever the administration of Scotch and English education. Therefore, this Bill does not propose to put the question of education into the category of this Bill. Well, Sir, I need not say that a proposal of this character has nothing in it of impeachment or disparagement of the ancient and high Office of the Lord Advocate. On the contrary, under this Bill, his authority is specially secured. I hope that this proposal, which is by no means a grandiose proposal, is one which will moot the necessities of the case, and will satisfy the desire which has been expressed for a new arrangement. It is a larger proposal than that made by the late Administration, which was confined to an Under Secretary of State. As I have said, it is placing the interests of Scotland in the hands of a person who may be supposed to be specially acquainted with the details of Scotch affairs, and placing them under an independent Department, and a Department with the dignity attached to it of the Privy Councillor's Office. I do not hesitate to say that besides the advantage which it will produce to Scotland, as I have said before, it will have the additional advantage of relieving the Homo Office from some of the work which is now cast upon it. I had occasion to refer to the character of that work the other day. I have in my hands a Paper showing the growth of the work in the Home Department. According to this the number of Papers received at the Home Office 20 years ago—in 1862 —was 18,659; and in the year 1882 there were 42,933; showing that, while the Department has very little increased in the means of doing its work, the burden upon it has been daily and greatly increased. In recommending this scheme to the House, I do not wish at all to exaggerate its character. The quantity of Scotch Business, so far as it comes under the cognizance of the Secretary of State, is not of an extensive character, Scotchmen have had the good sense to do their own business so well, that the questions which come up for solution by the Central Government are singularly few. Indeed, it will be difficult for anyone who has not had experience in the matter to believe how few are the questions which come before the Secretary of State in reference to Scotch matters. After all, it is only the difficult questions which require a special solution which come under that category. I can really almost count upon my fingers the questions of great importance which come up. Do not let it be supposed, as is sometimes said, that that happens because there is nobody to do the business. It is not so. Of course, we can always make business. There are two classes of administrators—those who do business, and those who make business. On the whole, I prefer that class of administration which consists in doing business, and not making it. I think it would be a great mistake if you wore to adopt any plan, the result of which would be the making of business for a Minister to do, and not having a Minister to do the business that has to be done. The best proof of that is, that while Lord Rosebery was transacting, as he did, to the satisfaction of Scotland, Scotch Business, he had plenty of time admirably to do English Business likewise. That showed that the idea that Scotch Business is starved because there is nobody to transact it is one which is not well founded. I should hope, therefore, that in constructing a Ministry which will be of solid advantage in the transaction of Scotch Business, the House would not desire to substitute the King Stork for the King Log, because that might be a substitution which might not be advantageous. It will be seen, if you bring to a central Minister more Business than at present exists, that Business must be really taken away from the local administration in Scotland; and therefore there may be great danger of the destruction by the Minister of this kind of local self-government and an increase of centralization, practically bringing to this Minister in London matters which before were much better done by the administration in Scotland. I only mention that as a danger to be guarded against, because I know people who have advocated this measure seem to have thought that it was an increase of local government in Scotland; but unless great care is taken you may have exactly the opposite effect, because it may destroy that effect of, and abolish local government, and centralize in London a great deal more than was centralized before. As regards any successor in that administration of Scotch affairs, I should be rather disposed to give him the advice given to a celebrated individual—"Not to indulge in too great zeal in making business which at present is very well transacted by other people." It is quite plain that if a Parliamentary Minister is to do more than has hitherto been done, it will be so much cut away from the administration which at present is done by local bodies in Scotland. I believe myself that the dissatisfaction which unquestionably has existed more or less with reference to Scotch Business has not been so much in respect of the manner in which the Scotch Business has been done, as the fact that there has been so little time to do it. That has been an evil under which we have all suffered. England has suffered as much as Scotland in that respect, and you cannot expect a new Minister to make more time. The only remedy for that evil is be found in a better method of conducting our own business—a problem we have not been able to solve successfully as yet. I think I have said all that is necessary on the subject, beyond calling the attention of the House to the details of the Bill, which is a very short one. The Bill proposes to construct a Local Government Board for Scotland, and such Board shall consist of a President to be appointed by Her Majesty, and to hold Office during the pleasure of Her Majesty. That, in point of fact, is the establishment of a Minister to take charge of the administrative Business of Scotland. There will be associated with him, ex officio, as Members, the Secretaries of State, as in the Local Government Board, and the Board of Trade; but the effectual administration of the Office will be in the President of that Board. The President will receive a salary of £2,000 per annum; but I should say that the money will not be a charge upon the country, because it is intended to employ for that purpose the salary at present given to the person who holds the Office of Privy Seal. That is the manner in which the funds are to be provided. Then there will be such a staff as is requisite for the transaction of the business; but that will be settled by the Treasury. Of course, the President of the Board may be a Member of either House of Parliament. Then the material part which Scotch Members will wish to know is, what are to be the powers transferred to this Office? All the powers and duties vested in, or imposed on, one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, or the Privy Council, or Local Government Board for England, so far as such powers relate to Scotland, shall, on and after the establishment of the Local Government Board, be transferred to, and vested in, and imposed upon, the President of the Board, and any Report or inquiry hitherto made to the Secretary of State shall be made to this Board. Clause 6 states— Nothing in this Act shall prejudice or interfere with any rights, powers, privileges, or duties vested in or imposed on the Lord Advocate by any Act of Parliament, or custom. The Schedule is the important part of the Bill, because it states the powers to be vested in the President of the Local Government Board—namely, Poor Law, Lunacy, Fishery Board, registration of births, deaths, and marriages, vaccination, the general police, burgh police, and improvements, division of burghs into wards, markets and fairs, prisons, public parks, general assessments, turnpike accounts, and the roads and bridges; locomotive regulations, the Glasgow Police, Sheriff Court Houses, Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, artizans dwellings, local taxation, burial grounds, and rivers. [Laughter.] I do not know what makes hon. Members laugh. We want to transfer all the Business transacted by the Secretary of State into the hands of this Department. Then there are industrial schools, reformatories, mines, and so on, so that this will be a com- plete system of local administration in the hands of an independent Department. All questions belonging to law and justice, and higher questions of Executive Government, will remain as at present in the Office of the Secretary of State, acting on the advice of the Lord Advocate. That is the scheme the Government have to recommend. As I have said, they go rather further than the proposal of the late Administration; and it appears to me, as far as I can give any consideration to the matter, to provide for what seems to be desired—namely, to have the independent administration of local Scotch affairs in the hands of an independent Department, having high position and dignity in the hierarchy of administration. I hope that that is a proposal which will be considered moderate and practical; and if that is the view of the people of Scotland and their Representatives, then I hope the House will allow this Bill to be carried to a practical issue.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill for constituting a Local Government Board for Scotland."—(Sir William Harcourt.)

MR. DALRYMPLE

said, he would not detain the House at that late hour by any lengthened observations upon the remarkable announcement which had been made to them by the Home Secretary (Sir William Harcourt). A great deal of interest had been taken, by anticipation, in the Bill the Government were now introducing, and that interest was heightened — if anything could heighten it—last night by the fact that the Home Secretary told them that the Bill was ready, and the speech was ready, and that the Notice alone was wanting, so that they had to wait until to-night for the introduction of the measure. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the proposal was not a grandiose one. He did not wish to speak in disrespectful terms of a measure proposed by Her Majesty's Government, otherwise he should speak of it as a ludicrous one. As he understood it, there had been a great demand for an Under Secretary in this House. A remark had been made by the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), in the course of a discussion in Supply lately, to the effect that the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department ought to be in this House. With the exception of that remark he ventured to say—and he challenged contradiction—that there had not been a single expression in the House in favour of an Under Secretary being in this House rather than in the other. The manner in which that desire, expressed by the hon. Member for Burnley and endorsed by the Earl of Rosebery, was to be given effect to was this — that while there was now an Under Secretary of State for the Home Department in the House of Commons, there was to be a President of the Local Government Board in Scotland appointed, who was to be the Lord Privy Seal—that was to say, that the new functionary to be appointed to preside over local affairs in Scotland was to be the great Officer of State, the Lord Privy Seal. ["No, no!"] Well, he was to have the salary of the Lord Privy Seal he did not for a moment presume to say who the individual was to be, or to say that he would be called the Lord Privy Seal. On this point he would only congratulate Her Majesty's Government on their first step in the direction of economy since they came into Office, for they were now proposing to create a new Department without imposing additional expense on the country. The Office of this long-expected functionary in Scotland was to be combined with the Office of Lord Privy Seal, which had been for many years the pet aversion of the Liberal Party, the individual filling it having been familiarly known as "the Ministerial maid of all work." He (Mr. Dalrymple) confessed he regretted the introduction of this measure. He was aware there had been a movement—he could not call it a strong expression of feeling—in favour of some re-arrangement of the management of Scotch affairs. He did not for a moment believe that this change was necessary. Her Majesty's Government sheltered themselves under the precedent of the Bill of the late Government in 1878; but a more unfortunate precedent for them to take could not be imagined. He did not suppose that anyone who remembered that Bill but considered it a remarkably foolish one. That Bill proposed that an Under Secretary should be appointed, who would be the head of the Register Office at Edinburgh, which would necessitate his residence there, and the only thing that was alleged in favour of this unequal yoking was that it was desirable to take the salary of the Deputy Clerk Register.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, it was not so stated at the time.

MR. DALRYMPLE

said, it was well known at the time, and considered the best part of the measure, and it was in imitation of that measure that the present Bill was introduced. The Office of Lord Advocate was as capable now as it was then of fulfilling all that Scotch Members desired in reference to Scotch Business; but at that time, or shortly before the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Assheton Cross) was introduced, the Lord Advocate's Office had received a severe blow, and the then Home Secretary absorbed, to a great extent, the duties of Lord Advocate, and a still worse thing happened, the separate official residence of the Lord Advocate was abolished. These two things considerably diminished the importance of the Office. When the present Government came into Office the right hon. Gentleman (Sir William Harcourt) inherited that state of things—he made no complaint either of the late Home Secretary who absorbed the power of Lord Advocate, or of the present Home Secretary who did not disgorge it—but the Office was not so eminent as it ought to be, though as capable as ever it was of independent existence, and, if permitted to survive, of fulfilling all that Scotch Members desired in reference to Scotch Business. He had referred to the remarkable absence of any movement in favour of the particular proposal the Home Secretary had made. The right hon. Gentleman made an extraordinary speech in favour of his own proposal, and he seemed to argue, as much as possible, against the Office he intended to create. he said it was a most undesirable thing to create an Office, and then make work for it; while it was apparent to anyone that there were plenty of people before to do the work; that there was no difficulty in getting work done; that, in fact, it was admirably done. No one would dispute that statement; but it was a remarkable thing that in explaining his measure, he pointed out how admirably things were done, and that it was most important that in creating a new Office it should not be supposed that there was more work than those at present charged with it were capable of fulfilling. He would not attempt to follow all the literary allusions of the right hon. and learned Gentleman in describing this measure; but he did think it hard that the long expected and latest birth of time should be called a tertium quid. He said "King Stork" was not to be substituted for "King Log;" but his (Mr. Dalrymple's) opinion was they wore one and the same person, but that remained to be seen. Then they were to be careful lest they destroyed local self-government in Scotland in favour of centralization. There was one thing he heard with relief, and that was that the Scotch Education Department was not to be removed from Whitehall. It was not long since a Scotch Board in Edinburgh was abolished, and he thought it was possible that it would be proposed to remove the charge of education to this great personage who was to be called into existence. What were to be the duties of this great officer, this President of the Local Government Board in Scotland? He was to have nothing to do with law or justice, or the Prerogative of Mercy; but he would have to do with the Poor Law, lunacy, vaccination, turnpikes, rivers' pollution, and various other things. Lunacy bulked largely in the list, and he remembered it bulked largely in the Irish Church Act of the late Government. This was to be a very subordinate common-place official, so far as the duties were to go; but he was to be called by a high-sounding name, and he was to draw the salary of the Lord Privy Seal. He could not congratulate the Government on the announcement made, so far as he understood it at present, for it looked to him a little like a proposal to propitiate Scotch Members, and the hon. Member for Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ramsay) in particular; and he could not but regret that it had been thought necessary to deal yet a further blow at the Office of Lord Advocate, for which he confessed he had considerable tenderness, when he remembered the eminent men who had occupied it in times past, and when he felt confident, as he did, that the present Law Officers of Scotland were equally capable with those who preceded them of performing the duties appertaining from long custom to the Office, if only they were not taken away. He would not detain the House any longer; but he hoped the measure would be fully discussed on a later occasion. It was, he believed, a particularly unnecessary proposal, and that it did not cost any money to the country was the least important matter connected with it. He believed it was a further blow at the position of Lord Advocate, and that he greatly regretted. He could see nothing that had led to the introduction of the measure, except the peculiar circumstances that led to Lord Rosebery's retirement, and the remarks of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands).

MR. CRAIG-SELLAR

said, he could not express great enthusiasm for the proposal. The work mentioned had been discharged by certain Boards in Scotland; and it seemed to him that work which had been ably, efficiently, and economically discharged by these Boards was to be taken from them, put into a mortar, and pounded up to produce some work for a new official.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, his hon. Friend had entirely misunderstood him if he supposed this Minister was to do the work of all those Departments he had mentioned. He would not have to do the work of the Board of Supervision, but only the functions that the Secretary of State had in reference to these Departments. The Departments would exist exactly as now. The new official would do that which the Secretary of State now did in reference to these Departments. It would be the substitution of the official in place of the Secretary of State. There would be no transfer of any of the duties from the Board to the new official, who would occupy the same relation to the Board as the Secretary of State now did. It was the transfer of the functions of the Secretary of State with reference to local government in Scotland to the new Office. In order that there might be no mistake, he had read the clause; but he would read it again. The clause he mentioned was the 5th— All powers and duties vested in or imposed on one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, or by the Privy Council, or the Local Government Board for England by the enactments in that behalf specified in the Schedule hereto.

MR. CRAIG-SELLAR

said, he was glad to hear he had misunderstood the Home Secretary; but the doubt which existed before the clause was read only intensified what he was going to say—namely, that he hoped the Bill would be at once circulated and sent to Scotland, in order that the House might have an expression of the definite and authentic opinion of the people of Scotland before the Bill passed into law. It was a measure of far too much importance to pass sub silentio at the close of a Session; and it was of first importance that it should be discussed and understood in Scotland before even the second reading was taken. There were two points in the Bill which were satisfactory. Ono of these was that the administration of the educational system was not to be entrusted to the new official, but that this would be performed by the Education Department as heretofore. It would be unfortunate if any change were made which might interfere with what he hoped might ultimately be the case—namely, that there should be a Minister for Public Education, who would discharge the duties connected with England, Scotland, and Ireland. The other point which was satisfactory was, that the work committed to the Lord Advocate, and which had been so efficiently discharged, was not to be superseded.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, as from both sides of the House opinions had been expressed unfavourable to the Bill, he wished to say that, at the first blush, he very much liked the proposal of the Government. It seemed to him a very happy tertium quid. A Local Government Board, or something of that nature, was very much wanted in Scotland. Local Boards needed a good deal of looking after, and though they were good on the whole, they were not sufficiently under the control of Parliament. In local statistics Scotland was very far behind England and Ireland. It seemed to him that Her Majesty's Government, in taking the opportunity of creating a Local Government Board for Scotland, and transferring to that Board all those parts of the Business not general or Imperial transacted by the Home Office, would accomplish a good object. One question he would like to ask; he believed, although the President of the Board would not necessarily be a Peer, it was possible that he would be; in that case, who would represent the Department in the House of Commons?—for, after all, it was in the House of Commons that the Business would be.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, both the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the Lord Advocate would be ex officio Members of the Board, and would, in the event of the President being in the other House, be answerable in the Commons for the action of the Board.

SIR JOHN HAY

said, he did not understand that this new Minister was to be a Member of the Cabinet, and the Scotch Members then would have no influence beyond that they already possessed in the conduct of Scotch Business. With the Home Secretary and the Lord Advocate, the House would be just where it was, and he should be glad if it was so. No doubt, it would be convenient to some person to draw this salary; but he (Sir John Hay) trusted he would do nothing further in reference to Scotch affairs. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary did not go back to the valuable Report of the Commission of 1879, and the investigation by Sir William Clark and Lord Camperdown. Excellent evidence was given, amongst which was that given by Sir William Gibson Craig, because he was aware of the disadvantage that occasionally occurred when the Lord Advocate was not able to get a seat in Parliament. In such a case, Sir William Gibson Craig said, it appeared to him that when there was a Scotch Lord of the Treasury, he was the fittest and most proper person to conduct Scotch Business; and this was also his (Sir John Hay's) opinion. "Herrings" and "vaccination" would principally concern the duties of the Office, questions with which his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. R. W. Duff) was quite able to deal. All that had been said in reference to the Lord Advocate he could confirm; and it was not only his own opinion, but that of every Scotchman he knew, that there was no desire that the Office of Lord Advocate, held now by an eminent lawyer—as eminent as any of his Predecessors, and as capable of performing the duties—they had no desire to see Scotch Business taken out of his hands. He agreed with his hon. Friend (Mr. Dalrymple) that the late Home Secretary set the bad example of muzzling the Lord Advocate, and attempted to do Scotch Business that was better done by the Lord Advocate. This, unfortunately, had gone on, and the real cure was not a noble Lord in "another place," but that a Lord Advocate should come to the House of Commons and do duty for Scotland, referring, of course, questions of great importance to the Cabinet, but who would meet Scotch Members assembled, as Lord Moncreiff used to, in the Tea Room. He mentioned Lord Moncreiff because he sat on the other side; but he might mention Lord Mure, and other Representatives of the Office of Lord Advocate. But the present was not the time to discuss the Bill, and when it came to be known in Scotland he hoped it would not be heard of again in the House.

MR. DICK-PEDDIE

said, he did not rise for the purpose of making any remarks on the proposed scheme for the arrangement of Scottish Business. He should like, before expressing any opinion on it, to have time to give it careful consideration. He wished to say, however, that he had never recognized the necessity for any material departure from the present arrangements. He was not one of those Members of whom the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Homo Department had spoken, who had memorialized the Primo Minister on the subject. He had declined to sign Memorials, both before Lord Rosebery's appointment and since his appointment. He had always, in answer to the complaints made in Scotland about neglect of Scottish Business in that House, pointed out that that neglect was greatly exaggerated. It should be remembered that, in all matters of Imperial legislation, Scotland benefited equally with England; and if it were the case, as undoubtedly it was, that there was great difficulty in passing measures specially relating to Scotland, the difficulty was not confined to these measures. The block of Business in the House affected measures in which England was specially interested, as well as those which dealt with Scotch matters. He wished to point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the terms of his Motion suggested that the proposed Local Government Board was to have its seat in Scotland. The Board was described as the "Local Government Board in Scotland." It was, no doubt, this that had led his hon. Friend the Member for Haddington to suppose that it was intended to do away with the Board of Supervision, the Prison Board, and other administrative Boards in Scotland. What had fallen from the Home Secretary showed that it was not intended to interfere with these Boards, and that the proposed Board was to be lecated in London. He would suggest that the word "for" should be substituted for the word "in," and that the Board should be called "The Local Government Board for Scotland."

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill for constituting a Local Government Board for Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Secretary Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT and The LORD ADVOCATE.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 251.]