HC Deb 08 June 1883 vol 280 cc35-8
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I should like to ask the Prime Minister a Question as to which I regret I have been unable to give him Notice, and which I am afraid he will not be able to answer at once. [A laugh.] This is not a laughing matter, as it involves a question of life and death. It is, Whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen the news from Egypt this morning that Suleiman Sami, who was the Military Commandant at Alexandria, has been condemned to death, and that the prisoner's counsel was refused permission by the Court at the trial to produce evidence which he considered to be necessary to his client's case; whether, bearing in mind the pledge which the right hon. Gentleman gave long before Whitsuntide with respect to a similar trial, Her Majesty's Government will use their influence that only a bonâ. fide and honest trial should be held, so that the prisoner may be at liberty to bring forward any evidence he can to rebut the charge against him; and, whether the right hon. Gentleman will endeavour to cause the delay of the execution of this unfortunate man until the Govern- ment have satisfied themselves that the trial has been, in all respects, a fair and satisfactory one?

MR. GLADSTONE

The noble Lord is right in supposing that I cannot give a substantial and complete answer to him on the Question. We have received a telegram setting forth the fact of the condemnation of this person, and we have likewise a statement of the fact that restrictions were placed on the examination and cross-examination of witnesses. We have not yet received any statement from our own Representative which would enable us to arrive at any decision on those facts. I have borne in mind the pledge that was given with regard to a particular case before Whitsuntide, and measures will be taken to ascertain whether the pledge has been fulfilled under the present arrangement. I shall certainly lose no time in making inquiries, and I will endeavour to put the House into possession of a fuller account of this case than it possesses at present.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I suppose there is no danger of the execution taking place before Her Majesty's Government receive that fuller information. May we count on that?

MR. GLADSTONE

I am afraid I cannot go as far as that. The noble Lord asks us, in regard to the whole of these proceedings in Egypt, to secure beforehand that Her Majesty's Government shall have power, after what we have done in Egypt, to interfere in this matter. That is more than I can pledge myself to. All I can pledge myself to is to put ourselves as early as possible into communication with our Representative, and then to take such steps as the case may require.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that Her Majesty's Government will make such representations to the Government of Egypt as shall delay the execution until after these communications have been made?

MR. JOSEPH COWEN

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether Toulba Pasha, who has been released, and is now in Ceylon, was not really in command at Alexandria; and whether this man, Suleiman Sami, was not a subordinate official?

MR. WADDY

I desire to ask a Question, as to which, in the first instance, I would remind the Prime Minister and the House that at the time of the trial of Arabi Pasha it was distinctly stated that a very large number of papers belonging to him had been obtained with great difficulty, and were now in the custody of the English Consul. They were obtained for the purposes of the trial, and I would therefore ask whether, seeing that a question of life and death is involved, there is any chance of these papers being sent to England; and whether they will be laid on the Table of the House? Until we get these private papers we shall never be in a position to know the real truth about these massacres.

MR. GLADSTONE

Will my hon. and learned Friend give Notice of that Question?

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance that representations will be made to the Egyptian Government to delay the execution until Her Majesty's Government has received further information?

MR. GLADSTONE

It is absolutely necessary that before I can give a definite reply we should believe there is ground for our making such a request; but what I have said is that we will use the greatest expedition in order to put ourselves in possession of the facts.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

But surely, in a case like this, some steps might be taken to prevent what will be irreparable. I do not wish to prejudge the course which Her Majesty's Government will take; but surely some steps might be adopted to obtain a sufficient delay to enable the inquiry to be made.

MR. MACARTNEY

It is possible that this unfortunate man may be hanged while the inquiries are going on.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

Does the Prime Minister know that it would very probably be a godsend to the present Egyptian Government if this man could be hanged?

MR. GLADSTONE

It is extremely difficult, in the absence of my noble Friend who represents the Foreign Office (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice), to say anything further in this matter. We have no information which would enable us to say whether it is or is not the case that this trial has been improperly conducted. The proper course for us to take is to say that we will lose no time in obtaining information.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

It is only reasonable, before the House breaks up this evening, that we should have an answer on the subject. If the right hon. Gentleman will undertake to communicate with the Foreign Office on the point, I will put a Question to him before the House rises.