[BILL 154.] COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 2 July 1883)

§ MR. O'DONNELL
said, he hoped that, considering its importance, no attempt would be made to make progress with this Bill now. A large number of Irish Members were at present away in Ireland, who ought to be consulted on the matter. Although, technically, this was a Money Bill, and could therefore be proceeded with at any time, still it 151 involved issues much beyond those involved in an ordinary Money Bill, and if taken now would withdraw important questions of Government policy from any chance of fair discussion by the House. He was afraid this was merely a Bill to cover those Unions which had played an unpatriotic part in driving out of the country the helpless poor who were committed to their charge; and, on the other hand, to impose disabilities, by completely neglecting the merits of those Unions which had done their best to meet the necessities of the distress in Ireland. He feared that the defaulting Unions, in a national sense, were those which would be benefited by the Bill, and he hoped the Government would not try to proceed with the discussion of the Bill that evening. It would be just as easy to bring the Bill forward at another time, when there was a fuller attendance of Irish Members; and the Government owed them an opportunity of discussing it. That opportunity was taken from them by the manner in which the Government proceeded at the last stage, and he believed the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland gave a pledge to-day to the effect that, if there was any opposition to the Bill, he would not seek to advance the Bill this evening.

MR. O'BRIEN
said, he had expected that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland would make some statement as to the reasons for his withdrawal from the engagement he entered into with the Irish Members, that the Bill would not be spirited through the House that night as it was the other night. The Irish Members would have to protest as strongly as they could against any progress being now made with the Bill, for so grotesque a way of dealing with starving people, after months of cogitation, was quite unexampled in the annals of English bungling in Ireland. From all that he had heard the gist of the right hon. Gentleman's defence of the Bill was that he was ready to give some personal pledge that the money would not be used for the purpose of emigration, but simply in aid of those who had spent money in emigration. One of the Unions to be helped out of its difficulties was a Union in which the Guardians had supplied most of the cheap emigrants to the Government. Disguise the Bill as 152 they might in this House, it was a cruel mockery to call it a Bill for the relief of distress in Ireland. It was a mere bribe to the Unions which had been carrying out the mockery of the Government Workhouse theory. These Unions had run themselves into bankruptcy by carrying out the Government programme, and this Bill was encouragement to them to go on carrying out that programme, and in sticking to the workhouse test. There was nothing to prevent the Local Government Board, who were notoriously partizans of this policy, spending the £50,000 in bribing the Unions which had distinguished themselves by carrying out the policy of the Government. Before they could consent to this Bill, Irish Members wanted to know what it was intended to do for the unfortunate starving people, thousands of whom were in Donegal, to this hour existing on private charity, without which they must have died long ago? But for the hour of night, he could give most heartrending details of the things that were going on without the slightest help from the Government in Donegal at this moment. This Bill, which purported to be for the relief of distress, not only did nothing to relieve these unfortunate people, but appropriated £50,000 out of Irish funds, in order to add insult to injury, by transporting these unfortunate people. For those reasons, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not utilize the temporary advantage he had through the absence of the great body of Irish Members, and would not press the Bill forward until the Irish Members had an opportunity of framing Amendments which would secure, at all events, some portion of the money for the suffering people.

§ MR. TREVELYAN
said, the hon. Member (Mr. O'Brien) had, in one respect, missed the mark upon this matter. Three of the four Unions to be helped by this Bill were Unions which had been taken in hand by Mr. Tuke's Committee, and had never spent a halfpenny on emigration; and they were merely being aided because they were living from hand to mouth.

MR. O'BRIEN
said, that, as he understood, a large portion of this money would be at the absolute disposal of the Local Government Board, to be lent to Unions which had got themselves into trouble through helping emigration.

§ MR. TREVELYAN
said, that was the case; but the Local Government Board had not shown itself desirous of lending public money where it was not absolutely wanted for the purposes of local relief. The practical object of the Bill was to indemnify certain Unions who had borrowed small sums under the pressure of last winter. He did not wish to enter into the merits of the Bill at this moment. It was, in itself, an exceedingly small Bill, upon which hon. Members opposite wished to raise a considerable question. That question had been raised in the shape of an Amendment by the hon. and gallant Member for Cork County (Colonel Colthurst), who had an opportunity of bringing it on upon a Friday evening; and so intimately allied was that Motion with the substance of this Bill, that the hon. and gallant Member was actually seriously alarmed lest the Government should take advantage of this Bill being on the Paper to interfere between him and his private Motion. The Government, however, did not take that course. The Motion was discussed, and the House decided the point by a Division, which was sufficiently large, considering the time of the Session, and considering the relations between the Government and those Irish Members who wished to raise this question upon this Bill. He quite recognized that the hon. Members for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) and Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) had something to say for themselves when they urged that there were a considerable number of Irish Members absent now, who were present on Thursday, and who intended to take part in this discussion at some stage of the Bill. Under the circumstances the Government were perfectly willing to postpone the question until Thursday; but he would take this opportunity of saying that on Thursday the Government would consider they had a perfect right to ask the House to go through the stage of the Bill at any period of the evening, even as late as this (1 o'clock A.M.). This subject had been so frequently and so fully debated this year—this question of outdoor relief in Ireland, of which the present Bill was only a small part—that he thought he had a right to say that, after this notice, the Government would consider themselves at liberty to press the measure on the House, even at a very late 154 period of the evening. Under these circumstances he would accede to the request of hon. Members opposite.

§ MR. BIGGAR
said, he understood the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Trevelyan) agreed to the proposal for the adjournment of the debate; and he (Mr. Biggar) would therefore move that it be adjourned. He must say he considered the right hon. Gentleman had been guilty of very sharp practice, as he had not very long ago made a pledge to the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) that he would not bring this measure on after half-past 12 o'clock at night, and that he would not bring it on without Notice to the Irish Members. On Friday last he had brought the measure forward before half-past 12 o'clock, sheltering himself behind some hon. Gentlemen who had no connection with the Irish Party, and who, he said, had done something or other that justified him in breaking his pledge. Now, at 1 o'clock in the morning, and knowing that the leading Members of the Irish Party were absent from London, the right hon. Gentleman had sought to pass the measure without having questions raised on the different clauses, which he was perfectly aware it was the desire of hon. Members to raise. Hon. Gentlemen had a perfect right to complain of his conduct; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman owed them an apology with regard to it. However, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had agreed to postpone his Motion for the Speaker to leave the Chair until Thursday, he (Mr. Biggar) would now move that the debate be adjourned.

§ MR. KENNY
said, he should be happy to second the Motion.