HC Deb 21 August 1883 vol 283 cc1592-601

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Chamberlain.)

MR. BIRKBECK

said, it was most unfortunate for the fishing interest that the Bill had been introduced so late in the Session. Those interested in the question had not seen the Bill, for the good reason that they were engaged on the fishing grounds. They knew nothing whatever about it; but it would, no doubt, be passed in a hurried manner, and for that the President of the Board of Trade must be held entirely responsible, as well as for the evil effects of such hurried legislation.

SIR JOHN HAY

said, the Bill, as he understood, was founded upon the Report of a Committee of which his hon. Friend who had just spoken (Mr. Birkbeck) was the Chairman. He (Sir John Hay) was glad to find that Scotland was to be excluded from its provisions.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, he was prepared to take all responsibility with reference to the Bill, which was founded on the Report of a Committee that was, with regard to all its main provisions, absolutely unanimous. He was very much surprised that the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Birkbeck) should entertain any doubt on the subject, as he was a Member of the Committee and signed its Report.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Title and construction of the Act).

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 17, after "Act," to insert, as a new paragraph, "This Act shall not apply to Scotland."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR JOHN HAY

said, before the Amendment was put, he thought it right that the House should recognize that credit was greatly due to the hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. Williamson), who had called attention to the fact that the Bill was entirely inapplicable to Scotland, and he (Sir John Hay) thanked the Government for having proposed to exclude that country from its operation.

MR. WARTON

said, that he was strongly of opinion that the provision for the exclusion of Scotland ought to form a separate clause and be inserted at the end of the Bill. They had got into a loose way of drafting their Bills, and it was not at all an unusual thing to find clauses altogether misplaced.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, he quite appreciated the view taken by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton); but he (Mr. Chamberlain) thought that, in all mat- ters of this kind, they were bound to depend on the proof received from the draftsman. The present wording had been drawn by the draftsman, and it had been approved of by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate of Scotland.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Application of the first part of this Act, and definitions).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:—In page 2, line 1, after "Service," omit "or," and insert— Shall apply to all fishing vessels of 25 tons register tonnage and upwards: and such portions of the first part of this Act as in any way relate to, said, he did so for the purpose of applying the provisions of this Act as to certificates, agreements, and certificates of discharge, to trawlers of 25 tons, as well as to agreements with boys, and indentures to all fishing vessels of 25 tons and drifters.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:—In page 2, after line 15, insert— The Board of Trade may before making any order under this section institute such inquiry as in their opinion may he required for the purpose of enabling them to make such order by such person or persons as the President may appoint for the purpose, and the person or persons so appointed shall have power to take evidence on oath or otherwise, and shall have all the powers of an Inspector appointed under the first part of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, said, it was necessary in order to give power to institute inquiry before issuing any notices in The Gazette under the provisions of the Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Indentures and agreements with boys to be void if not entered into before a superintendent of mercantile marine).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:—In page 4, at the end, insert— Nothing in this Act shall prevent the daily employment in a fishing boat of any boy under sixteen years of age who is under no obligation to remain in such employment for a longer period than one day, and with whom no written agreement has been made, said, it was intended to provide for the case of boys engaged for a day, or sailing with their parents.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 15, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Fishing boats making short voyages may have running agreements).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:—In page 7, line 1, after "voyages," insert "or any number of weeks," said, in was intended to apply in the case of a broken voyage.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 agreed to.

Clause 18 (Definition of "voyage" of a fishing boat).

On the Motion of Mr. HENEAGE, Amendment made, in page 7, line 26, after "thereafter," insert "upon the conclusion of the trip."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19 (Reports of a fishing boat's crew on a voyage to be made).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 7, line 29, to leave out "twenty-four," and insert "forty-eight," said, it applied to the time before departure of vessel for sending in the list of her crew.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 20 to 23, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 24 (Skipper to deliver account of wages).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving as an Amendment, in page 8, line 31, after "every," insert "owner or," said, the necessity for it was shown by the fact that owners generally kept accounts, and paid the crew.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HENEAGE, moved an Amendment, in page 8, line 31, leave out "twenty," and insert "four," for the purpose, as he said, of providing an account of wages four hours before settlement.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:— In page 8, line 32, after "seaman," insert "unless the seaman gives notice to the skipper that he does not require it, said, it was intended to apply in cases were accounts were not required.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25 (Seaman to have inspection of owner's accounts and books relating to catch).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 9, line 2, after "catch," insert "and any dispute arises as to his share," said, it was intended in order that a seaman, after a dispute had arisen, might inspect such account and books.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 26 to 31, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 32 (How seamen and apprentices deserting, or neglecting or refusing to join or proceed to sea, or absent without leave, or guilty of disobedience or neglect of duty, may be dealt with).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving the following Amendment:—In page 13, after line 14, insert— Whenever any seaman or apprentice engaged or liable to serve on any fishing boat neglects or refuses to join or deserts from or refuses to proceed to sea in or absents himself without leave from such fishing boat, the skipper, owner, or boat's husband may, with or without the assistance of the local police officers and constables (who are to give their assistance in such cases when required so to do by the master, owner or boat's husband), take and convey such seaman or apprentice before such superintendent, principal officer, or deputy as aforesaid, and thereupon such seaman or apprentice shall be dealt with as if he had been arrested under a warrant issued under this section. said, it was intended for the purpose of bringing the seaman or apprentice before the Marine Superintendent without warrant, in order to have dispute settled in cases of refusal to obey a lawful command or refusal to sail.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 33 (Notice by seaman that he intends to absent himself from his ship and effect thereof).

MR. BROADHURST moved, as an Amendment, in page 13, line 18, to leave out "forty eight," and insert "twenty-four," on the ground that 48 hours' notice of his incapacity to go to sea was an unnecessarily long notice to require from a seaman.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed. Forty-eight hours' notice was considered fair by all persons practically concerned.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 34 (How wages are to accrue and to be calculated. Forfeiture of whole if voyage or trip shorter than period of forfeiture).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 13, line 26, after "or trip," insert "or the season," said, it was necessary to insert it, because wages were contracted for by the "season" in Cornwall, as well as by voyage and trip.

Amendment agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. HENEAGE, Amendment made, in page 1 3, line 29, after "or trip," insert "or season."

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment— In page 13, line 30, after "or trip," insert—" or season: Provided, always, that a seaman or apprentice shall not be entitled to more than what his share of the profits or catch made during the period he has actually served may or would have amounted to, said, it was intended to provide that the share of the catch should be only for the period when the seaman or apprentice was serving.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 35 agreed to.

Clause 36 (Certificates for fishing boats heretofore granted to be deemed to have been granted under 17 & 18 Vict. c. 104 (Part III.).

MR. WARTON

asked the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain) whether it would not be advisable to drop this, the certificate clause?

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, he thought it might be taken for granted that all the persons affected by this clause were well acquainted with the other provisions of the Bill. Local inquiries had been held; a great number of fishermen gave evidence; and they were well aware of what was being done. What was required was, that these men should pass a very elementary examination in what constituted good seamanship for these fishing boats. He considered that it was alike in the interest of both masters and men that this elementary examination should be insisted upon.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 37 to 39, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 40 (Certificates of service to be given to certain skippers of fishing boats).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 15, line 7, to leave out "July," and insert "September," said, it was intended to provide that service certificates might be given until next September, before regular certificates were required under the Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 41 agreed to.

Clause 42 (No fishing boat to proceed to sea without duly certificated skipper, and penalty for so doing).

On the Motion of Mr. HENEAGE, Amendment made, in page 16, line 3, before "no," insert "after the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and eighty four."

MR. BROADHURST,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 16, line 6, at end, to add— Or unless the second hand holds a certificate of competency or service entitling him to act as second hand of such fishing boat, said, there was no argument that could be adduced in favour of the skipper holding a certificate that could not be adduced in favour of the second hand holding a certificate. There might be 14 or 15 hands on board, and, as the Bill stood, there would be only one person on board as to whose competency there would be any guarantee whatever. In case the skipper were washed overboard, the boat might drift about the sea, without any person being aboard competent to take charge of it. He was aware he would be told there were always a number of men aboard who were perfectly capable of taking charge of the boat, in case of the loss of the skipper. But if they were perfectly capable of taking charge of the boat, there could be no objection to requiring them to show their capacity by undergoing a simple examination in seamanship. It would be very satisfactory to the families of the men if they knew that, in case of the loss of the skipper, there was someone on board who was capable of safely guiding the boat into port. It was very necessary every protection for the lives of our fishermen should be afforded.

Amendment proposed, In page 16, line 6, at end, to add—" Or unless the second hand holds a certificate of competency or service entitling him to act as second hand of such fishing boat."—(Mr. Broadhurst.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, it was one of the recommendations of the Committee, in their original Report, that the second hand should hold a certificate of competency; but, on fuller consideration, it was decided to omit such a provision from the Bill. A new system was being introduced, and he did not think the Bill was likely to work successfully if they were too stringent in the first instance. In the interest of the Bill itself the Committee had better leave the clause unaltered.

MR. BROADHURST

said, he was sorry the Government took such a view as that expressed by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain) of this matter. The only possible parties who could raise an objection were the very parties who objected to any certificates at all. The men concerned in the business, and whose lives were at stake, and the families of the men, were deeply in earnest in favour of the second hand holding a certificate. The Committee ought not to pander to the prejudices of men who objected to any certificates, and if he could get anyone to follow him, he should go to a Division.

MR. ACLAND

said, he thought the difficulty might be met by postponing the proposal of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst) for 12 months. If the Act was to come into force at the beginning of next year, the system of certificate would have a good chance of working by the end of 12 months, and then, possibly, the views of the hon. Member might be met by requiring the second hand to be certificated.

MR. BIRKBECK

said, he hoped the Committee would not agree to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst). He (Mr. Birkbeck) had had great experience of the management of fishing boats, and he knew of many cases in which the second hands of fishing boats had rescued merchantmen, the captains of which were certificated. The second hands of fishing boats very often knew more of the North Sea than the captains of merchantmen themselves. It was a very great mistake to suppose that loss of life occurred on account of a skipper or a second hand of fishing vessels not having certificates.

MR. BROADHURST

said, the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Birkbeck) had said the second hands on fishing boats were perfectly capable of managing the boats, and that they often knew more about the North Sea than many of the captains of sea-going vessels. If that were so, there would be no difficulty in the second hands passing an examination such as was required in the case of the skipper.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst) seemed to forget that, as a matter of fact, they had, in the Bill, already stipulated for additional precautions. It was unreasonable to press still more precautions against the views of those who were practically acquainted with the subject. The hon. Member was mistaken when he said this Amendment was desired by the men themselves. The fishermen had a rooted objection to many of these certificates; and, although, in the long run, it might be to their interest that these certificates should be held, the men were opposed to them. The Board of Trade had to administer the Act, and he (Mr. Chamberlain) was persuaded that if its provisions were made too stringent it would soon become a dead letter.

MR. WILLIAMSON

said, he hoped the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst) would withdraw his Amendment. In the largest ships, there were boat- swains who were very useful men, but who could not pass an examination. Much more difficult, therefore, would it be for the second hands of fishing vessels to pass.

MR. BROADHURST

said, no one would more readily join in thanks to the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain) than he should, in the name of the fishermen, for the good work he was doing in this Bill. His (Mr. Broadhurst's) object in the Amendment was, that, while they were engaged in good work, they should make it as perfect as possible. If the Government were determined to oppose him in this Amendment, there was no other course open to him than to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 43 to 51, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 52 (Fishing tenders to be home-trade ships).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 20, lines 26 and 27, to omit "The Merchant Shipping Acts, 1854 to 1873," said, it was meant to place fishing tenders under the provision of the Bill before the House.

Amendment agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. HENEAGE, further Amendments made, in line 27, by omitting "home-trade ships," and inserting "trawlers."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 53 and 54 agreed to.

Clause 55 (Repeal of enactments and saving).

MR. HENEAGE,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 21, to add— The repeal effected by this section shall not repeal any enactment so far as the same extends to Scotland, said, it was simply a saving section for Scotland, consequential on the Amendment introduced in Clause 1 by the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.