§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked the First Lord of the Treasury, When he will be prepared to make a statement with respect to Madagascar; and, whether he can now give the House any particulars with respect to a proclamation said to have been issued by "the Superior Commandant of Tamatave," prohibiting access to Tamatave "to all foreign sailors, soldiers, and officers?"
MR. GLADSTONESir, as I have intimated on a former occasion, I have no expectation of being in a position to make a statement with respect to Mada- 1357 gascar. As I have already mentioned, the narrative is of rather a complex character, embracing a number of different transactions and communications which have taken place between the respective authorities, and it has taken some little time, though no time has been lost, to examine them; and some little time, no doubt, may be required for communication between the two Governments on the subject, with a view to the necessary explanations. Indeed, I am not sure whether the French Government is yet in possession of full information. Some information they have received; but I am not able to state that they are in possession of full information. With respect to the Proclamation said to have been issued, I am glad to have the opportunity of mentioning that, as the right hon. Gentleman's Question implies, the Proclamation was not, as many people supposed in this country, a Proclamation limited to the officers of a particular vessel, or to the Representatives of a particular nationality. It embraced, as the right hon. Gentleman's Question says, "all foreign sailors, soldiers, and officers." But that Proclamation—although those words are correctly given—may form the subject of communications between the two Governments, and therefore I do not propose to enter into details with respect to it. I perhaps may say, as great interest is felt respecting the case of Mr. Shaw, that some information has been received about that gentleman. The French Consul at Zanzibar had been at Tamatave, and we understand, through the French Government, that Mr. Shaw himself was not actually in prison; but he was on board a French vessel, of which, of course, he had the free range. The nature of the charge has been communicated to the Government, and it amounts to this—that Mr. Shaw is accused of holding intelligence with the enemy; and likewise of directly hostile action against the French soldiers. This information, and some more, has been given in reply to the questions which were put by Lord Granville to the French Ministry here, and the information has been given by the French Government with very great courtesy, and without raising any question at all as to the title of the English Government to put questions with regard to French jurisprudence or the exclusion of French 1358 law. We are informed as to the nature of the charge against the prisoner—so to call him—although he is not strictly in prison—it is absolutely obligatory by the French law that communication should be made to the effect that under the French law he would be tried by a court martial. There is a power of appeal before a Court of Revision; and the French Government states that they have no doubt that there is no reason whatever for supposing that he will not have every facility for preparing his defence. This, of course, is only partial information; but it may, perhaps, tend to allay any anxiety that may be felt about Mr. Shaw. I may add that there have been very cordial communications between the French Admiral and the Governor of the Mauritius.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEI suppose there is no doubt that Mr. Shaw is compulsorily detained on this French vessel?
MR. GLADSTONEHe is under a criminal charge, and therefore we may justly suppose that he is so detained.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEI think the answer that has been given by the right hon. Gentleman is very far short of what the House has a right to expect, and I shall repeat the Question to-morrow.
MR. GLADSTONEThen I beg to say that I shall not give any further answer. I cannot give any without a breach of public duty and without injury to the public interest. It would be distinctly injurious to the public interest, and, moreover, would be adverse to the perfectly amicable and friendly discussion of these matters between the two Governments, if I were to anticipate the communications that are to be made.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEI beg to point out that I am not asking for any information as to communications that are passing between Her Majesty's Government and the French Government; but I wish to know what is the state of the facts as they are in the hands of Her Majesty's Government?
MR. GLADSTONEI do not complain at all of that observation, nor of the Question that stands in the name of the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett), and which is virtually involved in the Question of the right hon. Gentleman; but what I feel is this—and I 1359 am sure from his experience of public affairs that he will see there is something in it—that for me to attempt to give a particular account of what he very properly terms "the facts" would involve, as I have said, going into the details of intricate Correspondence, and that account of such intricate Correspondence could not be given in a manner satisfactory to the House unless the Papers were laid upon the Table. It would be injurious and premature to lay the Papers on the Table at the present moment; and it is upon that account, and that account alone, that I feel there is no satisfactory method of dealing with the question but as I have done until the House is in possession of the whole facts of the case. I express my regret that it is not in my power to go further than I have done on the present occasion.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEMay I ask whether, supposing, after Parliament has risen, the case should reach a stage at which the facts could be disclosed, any steps will then be taken to make them public?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERBefore that Question is answered I should like to ask, though I shall not press it if my right hon. Friend desires me not to do so, whether he has any objection to state where the trial by court martial of Mr. Shaw is likely to be?
MR. GLADSTONEI think we have no information on that point. There is no reference to it. With regard to the Question of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote), my answer is, without Notice and hastily, that I am aware of no objection to such proceeding. Of course, the desire of the Government will be to make known to the world at once, in order to allay any anxiety, if any anxiety exists, the result of these proceedings.
§ MR. ONSLOWI wish to ask, Sir, whether the Government intend to provide counsel for the defence of Mr. Shaw?
MR. GLADSTONEI am not aware of any reason why that should be done, and I have no reason to think it will be asked, unless the hon. Gentleman thinks it the duty of the Government to have an army of counsel all over the world for the purpose of defending British subjects who may be put under accusation. There is nothing in this case, so 1360 far as I know, to show reason why an exception should be made; and no application whatever has been received, nor, so far as I am aware, is there any wish for the intervention of the Government.
§ MR. ONSLOWI may remind the right hon. Gentleman that he could obtain counsel from the Mauritius with the greatest ease.
§ SIR JOHN HAYI merely wish to ask, has the French Navy power to try a prisoner of war—if that is what Mr. Shaw is—by court martial without communicating with the country whose subject he is? Or is the House to understand that he is confined on board ship as a spy?—because he must be, I suppose, in one position or the other.
MR. GLADSTONEThere is no charge, Sir, in the communications which we have received, of Mr. Shaw being a spy. With regard to the other Question of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, it would be rash on my part to give a reply to it until I have communicated with others who are better qualified to give an opinion upon it. I can only say that nothing has occurred which has made it necessary for us to press such a point.
§ SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he would put a Question on the subject on Thursday.
§ MR. HEALYIs there any complaint with regard to the restrictions imposed upon Mr. Shaw, or in respect to his treatment?
MR. GLADSTONEWith reference to his treatment we have received no complaint, and have heard of none to lead us to suppose that he is not well treated. Further than that I can give no information.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked, Whether the Despatches from Madagascar confirm previous intelligence on the following subjects:—That the late British Consul was ordered by Admiral Pierre to haul down his flag within twenty-four hours; that his secretary was arrested in his presence, and that the British flag was hauled down by the French; that all communication between H.M.S. "Dryad" and the shore was forbidden by the French Admiral; that the British ship "Taymouth Castle," on her arrival at Tamatave, was boarded by the French, who placed a sentry on board, and forbade the Captain to land any passengers, and only allowed him 1361 to land cargo on payment of the French Tariff; that Admiral Pierre made up the outgoing Mails and demanded and took the ingoing Mails; that he also demanded the Consular Despatches, and was only prevented from taking them by Commander Johnstone, of the "Dryad" sending them on board the "Taymouth Castle" and escorting her to sea through the French fleet; that Tamatave has been proclaimed a French town, and a French mayor appointed; that a large amount of British property was destroyed, and that 2,000 British subjects, rendered destitute by the bombardment, have had to be conveyed to the Mauritius; whether an English merchant and his three servants have been arrested, and are now in prison on board a French iron-clad; whether Admiral Pierre has been recalled by the French Government; and, who now represents Her Majesty at Madagascar?
MR. GLADSTONENo, Sir; I am afraid I must regard the Question in the same light as that addressed to me by the right hon. Baronet (Sir Stafford Northcote). There are certain points that are incorrectly assumed by the hon. Gentleman; and I could not answer without involving myself, as I explained, in intricate considerations connected with the Papers, and placing myself in the inconvenient position of giving inadequate and partial information.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the Prime Minister whether the Pre-amble of the Proclamation did not run to the effect that, "considering the attempts of certain officers of Her Majesty's ship Dryad" to impede the course of justice and obstruct the authorities, and so forth, they forbade the access to Tamatave of "all foreign sailors, soldiers, and officers?" He should also ask whether the House understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the French Government had shown great courtesy in not raising any question as to the right of the British Government to inquire under what law the claim to imprison a British subject in Madagascar was made; and whether it was not only the right but the duty of any Government, British or otherwise, to make direct and positive inquiry into the imprisonment of their subjects?
MR. GLADSTONEI am not prepared to allege that it is the duty of the Government, as a matter of course, or as 1362 a general rule, or except under very peculiar circumstances, to make inquiry with reference to a subject who has come, or is supposed or alleged to have come, within the range of the law administered by foreign countries. I must repeat that the French Government acted with a good deal of courtesy in the matter; and I regret that the hon. Gentleman should consider it necessary to make that matter the subject of a Question. With regard to the Proclamation, I have already stated, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that there were portions of this Proclamation which entered into the subject-matter of communications between the the two Governments, and that is so.
§ MR. EDWARD CLARKECan the right hon. Gentleman say on what charge Mr. Shaw is detained?
MR. GLADTSONEI have given the information which we have received; at least, I gave an account of the charge that is given. He is detained "on account of alleged intelligence with the enemy, and hostile action with respect to the French soldiers."
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERasked who now represented Her Majesty's Government in Madagascar?
LORD EDMOND FITZMAUEICEBefore Consul Pakenham died he made certain arrangements with Commander Johnstone for the safe custody of the archives and the temporary performance of the duties of the Consulate. Whether these arrangements are of a strictly binding character may be doubtful; but for the moment Commander Johnstone is performing all the duties he can perform in the matter. I have already stated that Mr. Annesley has been appointed in succession to Consul Pakenham; and Mr. Pickersgill has been appointed Vice Consul.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEMay I ask whether Mr. Shaw is able to communicate with his friends?
MR. GLADSTONEWe have received no distinct information to that effect. All I have quoted has come, not from Mr. Shaw, but from the French authorities.
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked whether there was any truth in the report which had reached him, to the effect that the French authorities inspected Consul Pakenham's papers after his death, and that they were in possession 1363 of the French authorities before they were handed over to the Commander of the Dryad?
§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEThat is a Question of which Notice had better be given.
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFI give Notice for to-morrow.
§ MR. PLUNKETMay I ask the Government whether they have taken any steps, or propose to take any steps, for the purpose of communicating with Mr. Shaw; and, whether they have any information as to the time at which the court martial will be held?
MR. GLADSTONEWe have no information as to the time when the court martial will be held. With regard to communications, I would rather take the opportunity of referring to the Papers before answering the Question.
§ MR. PLUNKETI will ask the Question to-morrow.
MR. GLADSTONEThe hon. Member should ask himself this Question. I will suppose that we were within what we deemed our rights in dealing with the subject of a Foreign Power. I am not sure that it would be a good compliment to us if in the Chamber of that foreign country the Government should be required to set itself in motion to see that that gentleman had a fair trial, because it would be a distinct imputation on us that there was some ground for doubting that he would have a fair trial. If any gentleman in the position of Mr. Shaw were not to have a perfectly fair trial it would be a grave and serious cause of complaint on the part of the Government of which he was a subject.
§ MR. O'KELLYCan the right hon. Gentleman say if there is any danger of Mr. Shaw being tried by a packed jury?
§ [No reply was given.]