(11.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £241,690, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1884, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK
said, he hoped Her Majesty's Government did not propose to go on with this Vote at that hour of the night. It was a Vote of immense importance, and he intended to propose an Amendment to it. It would be most unreasonable to go on with it now, especially having regard to the recent statement of the Prime Minister, that, in view of the great facilities the Government possessed in the future, these Votes would not be discussed late at night. Seeing that the Government had now the whole day for Supply, it surely was unreasonable that Votes of this kind should be taken after midnight. He had no hesitation in moving to report Progress, especially when he heard that it was the intention of the Government to take the National Debt Bill to-night. He made the Motion in the interest of the public service. He had no objection to affording all facilities to the Government which were reasonable; but, on the present occasion, he did not think it was reasonable that the House should be asked to go on with Supply.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Cavendish Bentinck.)
§ MR. COURTNEY
expressed a hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would allow the Vote to be taken. He (Mr. Courtney) knew the right hon. and learned Gentleman took an interest in one part of the Science and Art Department Vote—namely, that relating to purchases. The period of the evening was, however, still quite early; and he trusted the Committee would allow further progress to be made with the Votes.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK
said, he remembered a Member of the Government saying that half-past 11 o'clock was a late hour to commence the discussion of very important Votes. He should not withdraw his Motion, because of the lateness of the hour, and because they had already voted away thousands of pounds of the public money.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 74: Majority 59.—(Div. List, No. 288.)
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK
said, he felt it his duty to make some observations, to show in what a small degree the performances of the Government corresponded with their promises. He had endeavoured to obtain for them more than merely answers to Questions. He had called attention to the frescoes in the South Kensington Museum, which had already been mentioned once, when a most unsatisfactory answer was given by the Representative of Her Majesty's Government in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella), who especially represented the Department interested. He (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) was glad to see the right hon. Gentleman now in his place, because he believed he would be able to give fuller information than had been accorded by his Colleagues. He (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) believed that £3,000 was the Estimate for this work—although he did not now wish to trouble the Committee by going into detail upon it.
§ MR. LABOUCHERE
said, he had not voted with the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck), because at that period of the Session he thought it just as well that they should go on to a late hour. He did not think, however, that, as a rule, persons who looked on these matters with the eyes of economy cared about going on 393 with the Votes at that late hour of the night (1.45 A.M.). He should have been glad, if they could have had sufficient time to discuss the Vote, to have devoted three hours of the proceedings to it; but, at any rate, it should not be allowed to pass without the Government giving some explanation of what went on at South Kensington. His primary objection to that Museum was that it existed at all. It was a mistake—at least to his mind—to build it in a fashionable part of the Metropolis. They had the British Museum, and it would have been much more satisfactory if, wanting increased space, they had enlarged that Museum, instead of constructing another in the same town—another competing Museum. When he mentioned competition, he did not mean to say that there was competition in regard to the price of articles, one Museum competing against the other; but what he meant was that when a particularly good article was obtained by one Museum, a sort of amour propre suggested to the other that it should procure a similar article. That was the case with South Kensington Museum in regard to the Limoges crockery ware. [Mr. CAINE: Enamels.] Well, Limoges enamels. Why were they wanted for South Kensington? Simply because South Kensington might have as good a collection as the British Museum. Then as to the Rembrandt etchings. There was a fine collection of those at the British Museum, and what did South Kensington say? Why—"We must have as fine a collection," going by quantity rather than quality. What was the use of having these double collections? It appeared to him (Mr. Labouchere) to be a mistake, and it would be a great advantage if both the British Museum and the South Kensington Museum were not only in name, but in reality, under the same management. Such a system as that would most probably put a stop to these duplicate collections. Another objection he had to South Kensington Museum was because it cultivated a taste for bric à brac; and everyone knew that when a person got a passion for that sort of thing there was no satisfying it—that it became a perfect mania. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) having been at the head of the South Kensington Museum, of course 394 had this mania. He (Mr. Labouchere) knew that that was the case, for he had talked to the right hon. Gentleman about this "æsthetic nonsense;" and the right hon. Gentleman had said to him—"What! would you have the country without a Cabinet?" He should not like to speak of the Cabinet as anything rococo—speaking in a Parliamentary sense; and as to the other cabinets, he should not object to them, if their collection in any way benefited Art; but it did not. When they told him that it was necessary, from artistic considerations, to purchase cabinets of Louis Quinze or Louis Quatorze he took the liberty of doubting the assertion—it was of no benefit either to Art or Science. All that happened through their exhibition was this—people went to see them, and, knowing that for such things there was a ready sale amongst the rich, they imitated them and sold them as old specimens. The other day the Museum authorities gave £900 and odd for a cabinet which he was informed had been manufactured out of the pieces of an old sedan chair. Who was it that bought these things, and who was it that sold them? Was it not done by asking the dealers to go into the market, and buy on commission? Did the right hon. Gentleman not suppose that the dealers and commission agents hung together—was he not aware that it was pretty well known what South Kensington Museum had its eyes on, and that the amount asked for an article was brought up to what South Kensington was likely to give? He had no doubt a great deal spent by South Kensington in making purchases was reasonably spent; but, at the same time, he thought it would be well if they had more than one specimen of a thing, to give Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester or some other large town the benefit of the duplicate, instead of keeping it in a second Museum in the same town. Who were benefited by armour? Then, there were snuff-boxes and other things, which a rich man might buy, because he did not know what to do with his money; but, owing to competition, a great deal more was paid for them than they were worth. The right hon. Gentleman would, perhaps, say the purchases had been made most judiciously, and that the articles could be sold at a profit. Very likely that might be so; but there was no intention to sell them, 395 What things were bought should be things that were useful to Art and intrinsically beautiful; but, even then, he should complain of there being these two Museums. Another consideration was, that most of these things were paid for out of taxes; but most of the taxpayers were not able to go to these Museums, except on Sunday; and be wished that, instead of spending this money, and talking Art-culture, and all that sort of nonsense, the right hon. Gentleman would devote himself to opening the Museums on Sunday. If he would do that, and buy things which people would be benefited by seeing, be would confer some advantage upon the country. But the right hon. Gentleman was going from bad to worse. He was getting silly with this bric-à-brac mania of buying things because they were old. Then, as to pottery, there was a large collection; but it was notoriously bad. Where was it bought, and why was so large a sum of money given for it? The right hon. Gentleman gave shelter to every species of Art loans; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would decide that these things should be turned out, and let some useful Works of Art take their place. There was a great deal to be said in favour of having one instead of two Museums; and a great deal more to be said in favour of buying things that were useful or beautiful, and not merely things that were competed for by wealthy men.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK
said, he could not agree with the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere); for, if it meant anything, or had any solid foundation, it would apply to all Works of Art, and particularly to works of the ancient schools, which must form part of any Museum of Art. The point be wished to urge was in connection with British painting, and here he would join with the hon. Member, and inquire who was responsible for the purchase of these paintings? He thought it a great evil that this duty should be placed in the hands of more than one body. There were the Trustees of the National Gallery on the one band, and the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery on the other. He believed the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery had no power to purchase the works of living and British artists. He did not find fault with the South Kensington Museum, 396 for he felt that the authorities of that Museum had made an admirable collection with as little expense to the country as possible; but it was of public importance to know who were the people who were responsible for the purchase of paintings, and where some paintings purchased this year had been obtained—paintings which had been severely criticized by persons who were more instructed in the Fine Arts than he was. It was desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should give this information, and he should move the reduction of the Vote by £1,000.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £240,690, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1884, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith."—(Mr. Cavendish Bentinck.)
§ MR. STUART-WORTLEY
asked for some information as to the new arrangements for the Patents Museum, and said he hoped the conditions under which the working classes could see the Museum would be the same as hitherto.
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, that, when the Patents Bill was passed, the contents of that Museum would be transferred to the authorities of the South Kensington Museum. There they would be shown to great advantage, and that Museum was the only Museum in England which was kept open every day in the year, except Sunday, and until 8 in the evening, so that everything was done to make the Museum as useful and as popular as possible. With regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), he was one of the few people—and the few were getting very much fewer every day—whose primary objection to South Kensington Museum was that it existed at all. In his last Report, the Secretary to the Museum had summarized the whole of the cost of the work done; and he wished hon. Members would take the pains to look into the subject of Science and Art. The influence of that Museum on the Art and industries of this country had been something marvellous. It bad affected every kind of industrial art, and there was nothing else in the country that had done what this Museum had done. Hon. Members talked of the enormous 397 cost of bric-à-brac; but everything purchased for the Museum was not purchased because it was rare, but with a view to illustrating the industrial arts of this country. Such articles were circulated throughout the country in thousands of copies. The hon. Member for Limerick would ask what had been done for that City and for Cork; but one other hon. Member had stated that the South Kensington Museum had completely changed the jet industry, and several Irish Members, and among them the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), had spoken of the great advantages that had resulted from the lace exhibition, and had appealed to him to arrange for a small Museum in Ireland, and for the Director of that Department to go over and instruct the people. He (Mr. Mundella) could himself speak as to what was going on in the large towns of England, such as Nottingham, with its lace manufacture, and his own constituency (Sheffield), where this Museum had had marvellous influence. Every shop in London gave evidence of the change that had come over Art in this country, and it was extraordinary how few people seemed to realize that. The hon. Member for Northampton had said there were two Museums competing with each other; but there was nothing of the sort, for they strictly avoided competition. With respect to purchases, not a shilling had been spent without the greatest care and sense of responsibility. In the first place, the Art Collector was asked to consider every object, and there were a number of experts to examine every article and sign their estimate of its value; and the Lord President, and himself, and Sir Francis Sandford met once a-week to see what purchases had been made. They rejected everything that was not first rate, and the whole cost had been £300,000, and for that they had got what could be sold for 10 times the amount. The despair of many people was that they could not purchase these things at the same price as the Museum could. There were two gifts last year, which were worth all the money that had been spent since the Museum was opened; one of them being the Jones Collection, which itself was worth £300,000. Their system of circulation had been examined by the French Government, and the South Kensington Museum could not be competed with by any other countries, because they could 398 not get the objects which it had secured. With regard to British paintings, there were 1,400 water colours, and no collection had ever been better purchased.
§ MR. DILLWYN
said, a good deal of money had been spent on objects that seemed to him to be of very little advantage; and he wished to call attention to the extraordinary amount paid to the Professors in the Science Departments. It was proposed to create a Metropolitan School of Art and Science, applicable to industries; but he should like first to have a Committee of Inquiry into the whole expenditure for Professors, many of whom held more than one office. Then it was proposed to remove the Jones Collection altogether to South Kensington; but that would entail a very large expenditure. At the Jermyn Street School the scale of pay was very moderate—Lecturers receiving about £200 a-year, Teachers of Mechanical Drawing £100, Chemical Lecturers £300—altogether not a very large sum, and the work was well done and available to everyone. But at South Kensington he found there were five Professors at £800 a-year, one at £300, and another at £200; so that it would be at once seen that the scale of pay at South Kensington was much more extravagant than at Jermyn Street. He wished the Committee would look into this question of expenditure. He (Mr. Dillwyn) agreed with the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere); and he was one of the few who, according to the right hon. Gentleman, did not very greatly approve of the South Kensington Museum; and he did not believe so much in the improvement of Art which had taken place in the country being due to that Institution. He thought it was much more duo to English people mixing with foreigners; in fact, he did not think the test of South Kensington was any very good test at all. He would urge strongly the necessity of an inquiry being made into this expenditure; and he was satisfied that if that was done by an independent Committee, and not by a Committee for mutual admiration, great good would result.
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF
said, he wished to ask why there was an increase of £12,799 in this Vote this year? What the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dillwyn) had said as to the 399 enormous expenditure seemed to be true. In the Science and Art Department the Assistant Secretary received £1,200 a-year plus his pay as a Director of Science, which was £700 a-year. An Assistant Secretary, who was also a Director of Science, might be a very valuable man; but this seemed to him an exorbitant salary, if he received the two amounts together. Did he receive both salaries?
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF
said, at the same time the total Vote had risen by £12,799; and of that £1,507 were for the administration of loans, and £6,663 for the Museum division—and that irrespective of purchases and circulation, which required £1,000 extra; whereas the Schools of Science and Art, which were very valuable, were only accountable for £3,000 of this increase. He should like to know the reason of this discrepancy.
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, the £3,000 were for increased payments for results by Science students in the country. Then there was £6,974, which included all the grants and all the expenses connected with them for the Art Department, the Museum, and the administration. That was where the increase in the Art Schools went on every year. There were now over 900,000 persons studying Art in connection with South Kensington. This would go on every year—there was no doubt about it—by increasing grants, which would extend to the whole of the United Kingdom. The total cost of the whole Science and Art Department of the country was much less than that of some other countries he could name.
§ MR. CAINE
said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) would arrange for this Vote to come on at 5 o'clock next Session instead of half-past 1. If he did so, and enabled the Committee to debate it properly, there was so much to be said by hon. Members who represented constituencies which owed so much to the South Kensington Museum that there would be no difficulty in satisfying the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) of the usefulness and advantages of that Institution. The hon. Member had said he had been to the South Kensington Museum; but it could only be supposed, from his statement as to the two Museums 400 being in competition, that he had not spent more than half-an-hour in the building. It was clear that the hon. Member's acquaintance with the subject of his observations was not very extensive, when he spoke of "Limoges pottery," and of not knowing where a certain section was to be found. The Henri Deux pottery had been of the utmost value in enabling us in this country to study an interesting branch of Art. The study of this pottery had been of the greatest service to those interested in the English potteries. He (Mr. Caine) had no hesitation in saying that South Kensington had done more to revive industries in this country during the past 15 years than any other Art Institution.
§ MR. DAWSON
said, he wished to ask a question as to the position in which the Science and Art Department of Ireland stood at the present moment. They had been waiting for years in Ireland to hear of some practical step being taken in this matter. The Lord Lieutenant had been in communication with the Corporation of the City of Dublin and other public bodies; and he had been asked to adopt some suggestion which had been made as to the Committee for examining designs, and also to give the Science and Art Department an autonomous and independent management. Looking at what had been said about South Kensington by some English Members, it would not be surprising if the Irish Members did not hold it in the highest estimation. At any rate, the Lord Lieutenant had been asked to give them an independent Museum with an independent control. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) had constantly stated, when this question had been mooted, that if they had autonomous and independent management in Ireland, they would lose the benefit they derived from South Kensington, and that they would not take away from South Kensington as much as South Kensington would be obliged to take away from Dublin, in the shape of rare and valuable articles. Whether that would be the case or not, the right hon. Gentleman knew the opinion held and expressed by the members of the Royal Irish Academy and the other public bodies in Ireland. A Committee of citizens and scientific men had met 401 together at the Mansion House in Dublin, had shown great anxiety on this, and had asked the Government to give them an independent control of their Art Museum. The Lord Lieutenant, however, had not declared what step the Government were going to take in regard to this autonomous management. He would ask Her Majesty's Government to state now whether or not they would allow that separate independent management, on which principle alone the Dublin Museum could prosper.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK
said, he wished to point out—["Oh, oh!"] Hon. Members seemed to be impatient, which was owing to the unfair policy of breaking through the Rules of the House by going on with the Votes at that hour. He wished to point out that the question he had put as to the purchase of pictures had not been answered. Who was responsible for those purchases? It was most most important to the taxpayers that they should know who was responsible. In the case of the National Gallery and the National Portrait Gallery they knew perfectly well who were responsible; and if objection was taken to what was done the responsibility could be at once brought home. It had been pointed out that South Kensington Museum was responsible for the purchase of modern pictures; but it had not been stated what individual or individuals actually made the choice and authorized the expenditure. He wished to know from the right hon. Gentleman who was responsible, and whether the advice of experts was taken?
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, the advice of experts was always taken. In his time they had received advice from Pointer, and they had received advice from Armstrong, Leighton, and others—the best experts they could consult. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member below the Gangway opposite (Mr. Dawson), the question as to the Dublin Museum had been settled by the Lord Lieutenant and a Committee, on the lines on which they were all agreed, in a most satisfactory manner. Autonomy was not contemplated. If it were granted, Ireland would lose the advantage in regard to duplicates' circulation which she got now from her connection with South Kensington. The system at present adopted was this—If 402 they had an agent in Persia, Cyprus, or elsewhere, procuring specimens for them, they said to him—"If you can procure for us three specimens of a certain article, do so; we want one for South Kensington, one for Edinburgh, and one for Dublin." Dublin thus derived constant advantage from her connection with South Kensington, and by the system of interchange; and it could hardly be called interchange, as the giving was all on one side.
§ SIR JOHN LUBBOCK
said, the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) had stated that the scientific Professors were overpaid. He could not agree with that at all. One of them received £300 a-year, and another £200; and, considering that they were amongst the most eminent scientific authorities in the country, he thought the charge could hardly hold good that they were overpaid. As to competition between the South Kensington and the British Museums, which the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) had referred to, he (Sir John Lubbock) could confirm the reply which had already been given on the subject, to the effect that steps had been taken to avoid any such thing.
§ MR. BUCHANAN
said, he wished to know when the new works in connection with the Museum of Science and Art in Edinburgh would be begun, the money for which was voted last year? He should also be glad if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) would give him some explanation in regard to the Scotch Geological Survey. The right hon. Gentleman, in reply to a Question which he (Mr. Buchanan) had addressed to him some time ago, had stated that the staff engaged upon that survey was still very much below par; and he (Mr. Buchanan) trusted the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider what he had said as to postponing the increase of the Staff.
§ MR. RITCHIE
said, a great deal had been stated on the subject of the South Kensington Museum; but there was a great deal included in the Vote about which nothing had been said—the Bethnal Green Museum, for instance. He agreed with what had been said, in answer to the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), as to the value of the South Kensington Museum, and should be glad to see the Bethnal 403 Green Museum made as useful. No doubt, there was a very large collection of very useful objects to be seen at Bethnal Green Museum; but there was a remarkable absence of artistic objects. He did not mean to say that there was an entire absence of such objects; but anyone who chose to visit that Museum would see that it was almost entirely confined to useful articles, and those, however desirable, were not all that was wanted in a Museum. Anyone who knew the remarkable interest evinced by the people of the East End of London in collections sent amongst them—such as the Wallace Collection of Pictures—would regret that there were not more opportunities given to those people to see such things. Could not the authorities of South Kensington Museum arrange to occasionally send over some of their objects of Art and utility to Bethnal Green Museum? If they could, the result would be greatly beneficial to the people of the East End.
§ MR. LABOUCHERE
said, he had to complain that anyone who failed to see any special beauty in those æsthetic objects to which he had referred earlier on, and who ventured to protest against their idolatry, was regarded as a Philistine and a barbarian. Well he (Mr. Labouchere) confessed he was a barbarian in these matters—he saw nothing to admire in Queen Anne Mansions, hideous papers, old plates, china monstrosities, aesthetic colours, and all such nonsense. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) wished to develop the South Kensington Museum, which was to develop all this pernicious nonsense. If the right hon. Gentleman set himself to collect for South Kensington articles really useful and really beautiful, he (Mr. Labouchere) should not object. ["Agreed!"] Yes; "agreed" if the Committee wished it—but agreed to report Progress. If the Committee would not discuss the vote fairly he should be obliged to move to report Progress. The right hon. Gentleman had practically endorsed his view, for what had he said when he (Mr. Labouchere) had complained of this Old Curiosity Shop at South Kensington—this collection of sedan chairs, snuff-boxes, old cabinets, and Heaven knew what nonsense besides? Why, he had said—"Have we not jet objects at the Museum, and is 404 not that a benefit to the jet manufacturers at Whitby?" That was all very well; but of what use to the manufacturers of jet, or the manufacturers of anything else, were these old cabinets which were treasured up at the South Kensington Museum? What Art was there in these things, and what object could the authorities possibly have in keeping such a lot of old china, which was neither useful nor beautiful, on their hands? These things were only valuable because there were so few of them—thank goodness! One Museum had an old and very ugly plate, and the other Museum must have one like it, because there were but 20 or 30 in the world. So far as he was concerned, he should always protest against this monstrous waste of money on the part of Gentlemen who came forward here and bragged and blustered about the advance of Art and what they had done for South Kensington. So far as he was concerned, whatever these Gentlemen had done for South Kensington, South. Kensington had done nothing for the country. If the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) wished the collections in South Kensington to be useful to the country, let him send them—those which were really worth sending—round the country to other Exhibitions, so that the people in the manufacturing districts might derive from them that benefit which was to be derived. Let him devote all the money at the command of the Department to the purchase of articles of this kind—let him have Museums and artistic and industrial collections; but do not, for goodness sake, let him go on wasting the money of the country in such idle and foolish purchases as many of those they saw being made at South Kensington.
§ MR. DAWSON
said, it would be very ungrateful if he were to overlook the fact that the Lord Lieutenant, in a very fair manner, had called together, for the first time in Ireland, a Council of representative men. They had met in Dublin Castle, and had come to a decision as to the new building, its dimensions, and the purchase of land. These points had been agreed to without prejudice to the greater question, still undecided, as to the Irish management of the Institution. Well, he would say this to the right hon. Gentleman—let him put what collections he liked in Dublin, however 405 rare; let him appoint what Professors he wished, however eminent, to have charge of those collections, if the Institution was not under Irish management, or under management in harmony with the views of the Irish nation, inside the doors of that Institution the Irish people would not go, and thus the object of these collections—which was the storing up and interchange of specimens for the education of the people—would be defeated. The education of the people, and, in that way, the support of Art and Science, was the main object in keeping up this Institution in Dublin; and—as experience had shown—that object would not be obtained so long as the Institution was under the management of the South Kensington Museum, which had no sympathy whatever with Ireland, and in whom the Irish people had no confidence whatever. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons) would corroborate what he (Mr. Dawson) had said when he stated that at a public meeting of all classes in Dublin—of Conservatives, Liberals, and Nationalists, and persons of all religions, including the two Members for the University—a resolution was carried unanimously, telling the Government that all they could do would be useless, if they did not put this Institution under Irish management. He did not understand the narrowness of the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman. Were they to be told that, because they had an autonomy—if such were granted—that, therefore, the State would not treat them as it treated Edinburgh and South Kensington—that if duplicates were found of any object at Berlin, Vienna, or elsewhere, Dublin would not receive one of them? He (Mr. Dawson) was personally acquainted with that which the right hon. Gentleman could easily gather from the Blue Books, if he perused them attentively—namely, the friction and disagreement which took place between the authorities of South Kensington and the Science and Art Department in Dublin. Were not the Blue Books full of squabbles; and had not the Lord Lieutenant (Earl Spencer), over and over again, been obliged to exercise his authority to quell these tumults? Would not the Committee be surprised to hear that he (Mr. Dawson) had gone into the Royal Dublin Society, and had found the clock standing with the hands still where the students 406 were reading, and, on making inquiries, had been informed that the clock could not be moved until an order was received from South Kensington to enable it to be done? That was a typical case; and he appealed to his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin whether the intelligent citizens of the Irish Metropolis did not concur in asking for the Irish management of this Institution? Was it right that scientific gentlemen, in the position of those of Ireland, should be told that they were not to be masters of their own Institution of Science and Art, but were to take from my lords in South Kensington, whom nobody in Ireland knew—some subordinates whose names probably they had never heard of—all their instructions? He (Mr. Dawson) would tell the right hon. Gentleman that this matter was by no means ended; that the question would have to be answered; and that, unless the Institution was put under Irish management, it would, however excellent it might be, like the other Institutions of Ireland under similar conditions, prove a failure, failing to teach the Irish people that Science and Art which it professed to teach.
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, that, in reply to the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Buchanan), he had to state that, to the best of his belief, the new works in connection with the Museum of Science and Art in Edinburgh were now entirely out of the hands of the Department, and in the hands of the Office of Works. With regard to the Geological Survey, two additional assistants had been put on to get out the English survey as rapidly as possible; and it was expected that by the end of the year the 1-inch scale would be completed for England, and then the staff on the English survey would be put on the Scotch survey to get it out rapidly. With regard to the result of the exhibition of old furniture at South Kensington, it was a fact that the furniture trade of England was now a model to French cabinet makers, who came over to this country to study English styles.
§ MR. WARTON
said, that one thing in the statement of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) which had delighted him very much was that the Department now looked closely after every shilling of expense. At the bottom of page 333 they found a group of 407 subjects—"Purchases for Museums, £28,200." In the first 10 of these items there was not a variation of a single shilling between the two years—this year and last year. In the 11th item, however, there was an increase of £1,000—the item being, "Carriage of Materials, &c." It had increased from £4,000 to £5,000. There was no explanation given of this in the Estimates. What, therefore, did this increase mean; seeing that every shilling of expenditure was looked after so carefully? He found, in another place, that the grant for examples had increased from £3,200 to £3,700. Then, as to Solar Physics and Scientific Research—["Oh, oh!"] He should not be deterred by the groans of the Judge Advocate General, who seemed to have changed his place so that he might indulge in these inarticulate interruptions without observation—from commenting upon such points in the Estimates as he considered called for comment. He found that there was charged for Scientific Research £500. What did that cover?
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, that the reason Item 11 had increased, whilst the first 10 items remained stationary, was that so much was allowed for the purchase of Works of Art, and so much was spent; but the "Carriage of Materials &c." meant the increased cost of the circulation of those objects throughout the country, and that was going on from year to year. No grant increased so much as this—none increased so much in the demand that was made upon it. The Department at South Kensington could hardly meet the demands made upon them by local Schools of Art; and a Committee had been appointed to regulate the matter, and was doing excellent work. As to the grant for examples, which had increased £500, that was in regard to examples circulated amongst Schools of Art. As Schools of Art increased, so did the grant for examples. The schools paid something themselves on examples; and what were given under these Votes were simply grants in aid.
§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, that when the Government came into Office the Professors were receiving payment by fee. That was regarded as a very unsatisfactory system; and they, therefore, insisted 408 that it should come to an end. The question of the salaries to be paid to the Professors was carefully gone into, and a fair amount decided upon. The fees were now paid into the Treasury, and the salaries were paid, as they ought to be, by annual sums. He (Mr. Mundella) did not think that any Professor was overpaid. Certainly, he did not imagine anyone would begrudge the payment of £800 a-year to Professor Huxley. The Professor managed the whole of the Science teaching, and he did his work admirably.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.