§ (Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Mr. Parnell, Sir Joseph M'Kenna, Mr. Callan, Mr. Lalor.)
§ COMMITTEE. [Progress 4th August.]
§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 5 (Representation by whom to be made).
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, the clause provided that 12 persons residing in any district could put the Act in force. He objected to this number as being too small. There might be 12 men in a district who put the Act in force, and who, nevertheless, would not contribute one farthing to the rate to be levied for it. He thought there should be some provision made that the persons who put the Act in motion should be residing in the district where the rates would be charged. He begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 29, to leave out the word "twelve," and insert the words "twenty four."—(Mr. Gibson.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'twelve' stand part of the Clause."
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, he could not agree with his right hon. and learned Friend as to the question of number. It seemed to him that the number 12 was sufficiently large to guarantee that there was a bonâ fide need that the Act should be put in force in the district. He trusted his right hon. and learned Friend would not think it necessary to proceed with his Amendment.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Beresford) were agreed to, he should not be so anxious for the adoption of this Amendment. But he should be obliged to press it at a later stage of 1773 the Bill, if he were not met in this matter in a reasonable spirit. When the Bill was introduced last week he was urged to allow it to go into Committee, because it was intimated that the Amendment he had on the Paper would be accepted.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he hoped that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not divide the Committee on this Amendment. He thought the right hon. and learned Gentleman would agree with him that the danger was that the Act would not be sufficiently used. He believed the hon. and gallant Gentleman near him, as well as some hon. Members opposite, had expressed the opinion that the Board of Guardians would not be inclined, in some instances at least, to use the powers bestowed on them by the Bill. But did not the right hon. and learned Gentleman see that by increasing the number of ratepayers required to set the Act in motion its operation was largely imperilled? Another point was that there were several localities in which the number of ratepayers was not large, and the number of 24, or even 20, of those who would take part in a matter of this kind would be so few that the Act would not be put into operation at all. Finally, he asked the right hon. and learned Gentleman to bear in mind that public-spirited men in Ireland were not a large body, and that if he raised the principle of having 20 or 24 ratepayers, he would make the business of setting the Act in motion everybedy's business—in other words, nobody's business. He trusted the Attorney General for Ireland would consider the matter on its merits, and see that the Act should be put in operation by those who required it.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, nothing could be more persuasive than the appeal of the hon. Member who had just spoken. As he had not the slightest wish to act in any hostile spirit, he would withdraw this particular Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed,
In page 2, line 29, after the word "district," to insert the words "whose rateable qualification conjointly shall not be less than one-fourth of the rateable valuation of the district."—(Colonel King-Barman.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, it was obvious that the objection raised by him to the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) applied with still greater force to the proposal now before the Committee; because if the 24 ratepayers suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman would impede the operation of the Bill, à fortiori the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman would do so.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, he thought there should be a representation of the value of one-fourth, at all events; otherwise, the 12 ratepayers who set the Bill in motion might represent an infinitesimal proportion of the value of the entire district. It was only reasonable that this matter should be looked at from the point of view of those who thought that the number fixed by the clause was too small. He had heard many people say it should be one-third instead of one-fourth; and he threw it out for the consideration of the hon, Member (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) that he should remember that their work would be considered afterwards, and gone through with a great deal of care. If a representation were made to have the powers, which were very novel powers, in this Bill called into operation—powers which, if good for Ireland, would be good for England — what was the objection to saying that the powers of this Bill should only be exercised on a representation of one-fourth of the rateable value of the district? It was desirable that there should be some substantial representation.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that although the Act might be put into operation by a small number of persons, the initiative step might be taken by small holders; but it could only be called into operation by the consent of the ratepayers.
§ COLONEL NOLANsaid, there would be two or three large districts, and they would do neither one thing nor the other. If they held a large amount of land, they would not take any initiative.
§ MR. DAWSONpointed out that there would be the safeguard of a Provisional Order, in case of any drainage being stopped in any county in Ireland.
§ COLONEL KING - HARMANurged that some considerable care must be taken to prevent persons outside the area taken action. If the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would accept the next Amendment on the Paper, he should be disposed to drop this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed,
In page 2, line 30, after "district," to insert "and living within the area upon which the cost to be incurred in carrying the scheme into effect shall be charged."—(Mr. Beresford.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he should have no objection whatever to the Amendment; but he wished to point out one difficulty to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland which would have to be met at a subsequent stage. The area put forward in the beginning might not be the area afterwards adopted by the scheme.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, that was a point which might require consideration afterwards, because with regard to the area which would be charged afterwards, they could not tell whether the people lived within it or not. It was to meet that point that he had an Amendment providing that they should live within the section with respect to which the representation was made. Then they would be masters of their own section, and they would take care, he thought, to include their residences. There was nothing to prevent that; so that, if the hon. Member (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) liked, he could compose an Amendment out of his and that of the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Beresford), which should read—" and living within the section in respect of which the representation was made."
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 30, after "district," insert "and living within the section in respect of which the representation is made." —(Mr. T. P. O' Connor.)
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Words inserted accordingly.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
1776 Clause 6 (Requisites of improvement scheme of sanitary authority).
Amendment proposed,
In page 3, at end, to add, "the scheme shall avoid all interference with the demesne and amenity of residence of the owner of the lands proposed to be taken, and such lands shall be selected with due regard to the general situation and convenience of the owner's property, so as to diminish the value thereof as little as possible."—(Mr. Gibson.)Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.Words added.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Confirmation of Scheme.
Clause 7 (Proceedings for the confirmation of the improvement scheme. Petition to Local Government Board).
Amendment proposed,
In page 5, line 17, after "scheme," insert "and shall be bound to pay over the purchase money for such lands to the original owner within a period not exceeding one calendar month from the date of the confirmation of the Provisional Order." —(Colonel King-Herman.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, it was quite impossible to accept this Amendment; for it would be absolutely impossible that the money could be paid within one month from the date of the Provisional Order, because that was only the Act of Parliament under which subsequent inquiries would have to be made. He would suggest an Amendment afterwards which would have the effect of securing the utmost possible celerity in regard to payment of the purchase money.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he did not wish to prevent the Bill being effective; but he did desire to fix some reasonable time within which the vendor should be able to expect to receive his money. He should not object if it were three months, so long as some period was fixed.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, that where land was taken by agreement, the time for payment would be arranged; but where land was not taken by agreement—which he should deal with hereafter—it was reasonable that there should be the utmost possible despatch, but not 1777 such as would render it impossible to make the proper inquiries.
§ COLONEL KING- HARMANasked, whether the hon. and learned Gentleman would agree to substitute three months for one month? If some period were not fixed, he thought the Bill had better be thrown out.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, the machinery of this Bill was precisely the same as that of other Acts by which land was compulsorily taken in Ireland; but they could not guarantee that the process of the law would be quickened in every case, and it might be possible, with the utmost despatch, that the proceedings could not be worked out under six months.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he could not accept that argument. When the State owed money to a man, he did not see why the State should not pay the money within a reasonable time. If a man owed money to someone else, he had to pay within a reasonable time, or show some reason for not doing so; and it was hard that anyone should have his property taken away and not be paid within a reasonable time, because the State owed the money. He hoped the right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland would reconsider his decision.
§ MR. DAWSONsaid, it was well known that it was perfectly impossible to fix exact limits of time, owing to the variety of circumstances surrounding every case and every purchase. Every Provisional Order proceeded quickly or slowly, according to the particular circumstances, and it would be hard to fix a limit of time. The agents of the landlord would, no doubt, proceed with all possible despatch.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, this was not a matter which would affect a small holder, who had a few roods to sell; but it was a matter of large portions of land being taken, and it might mean ruin to a man if he did not know when he would get the money due to him.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, that if the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel King-Harman) would look at the Bill, he would find that there must be a time for notice and inquiry by the Board of Trade, and that the very minimum of time which that could be ex- 1778 pected to take would be six months. Of course, no possession could be settled until those steps had been taken, and there would be no title to the sanitary authorities to enter on the land. This was a matter in which the limit might be one, or two, or six months, from the date of the Provisional Order, and it would be absolutely impossible to guarantee the period, even with the utmost anxiety for despatch. If these first steps were not taken, the whole expense would be incurred for nothing, and the vendor would be in a serious position. It would appear like a legislative inducement not to move as quickly as possible, if there were a certain fixed time.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, a man having a small piece of land which he had leased to a tenant on short terms would not be able to find a tenant during six or seven months, and so he would be out of pocket.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that what he understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland to intend to introduce by a subsequent Amendment was that, if a landlord was able to show that the whole thing had not been properly carried out, then he would have his ground of complaint. He could not now discuss that Amendment; but if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would look at the Amendment, he (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) thought he would see that when a landlord was able to show that the whole thing was complete, then, if he did not get his money within 30 days, he would have a right to demand it.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANobserved, that during all this time the landlord would be kept from both his land and his money. He was sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland would appreciate what he was urging. He was not speaking on behalf of the large owners, but of the smaller owners.
§ MR. DAWSONsaid, the land would not he taken until the purchase was complete.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, the tenant would have to give up his land.
§ MR. DAWSONasked, why he should have to do that?
§ MR. P. MARTINsaid, that supposing a Provisional Order to be obtained for the compulsory taking of land for waterworks; under these circumstances, 1779 while that Provisional Order was in operation, of course the land would remain on the landlord's hands. If the landlord had a tenant, that tenant would be paying rent for the land; and still further, when the Provisional Order became absolutely operative, then before the promoters sought to enter into possession they would have to deposit the purchase money in Court; and, in point of fact, he thought, with all respect, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel King-Harman) would see that no possible evil could accrue to the landlord under these circumstances. If the tenant was on the land, he would have to pay the landlord. He could not quit, because there would be an application for a Provisional Order for surveying notices, and the tenant would not be dispossessed until after, under the provisions of the Lands Clauses Act, the money had been lodged in Court.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he understood that the money would be paid into Court; but that was what he objected to. It would be held in Court, and the unfortunate landlord would not get it—nobody would get it. He did not see why either the vendor or the vendee should suffer from this redtapeism; and he thought they might endeavour to make the sale of land a little easier. He had not expected opposition from such a quarter; but he did not wish to obstruct the progress of the Bill, though he hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland would consider this point again.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he wished to offer no opposition to the hon. and gallant Gentleman; this was a matter for the Government to settle.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 8 (Certain orders of the Local Government Board valid without confirmation by Parliament).
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, the object of the Amendment he wished to propose was to put in a minimum of one month. At present, under Sub-section (b) of the clause, power was given to the Local Government Board to prescribe a time, and he wished to provide that that time should not be less than one month.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he had an Amendment before this; and he 1780 wished to suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland, whether or not three ratepayers were not too few to be empowered to compel an Act of Parliament to be carried out?
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, it had been suggested that, under some circumstances; three were too many.
Amendment proposed, in page 6, line 4, after "time," to insert "not less than one month."—(Mr. Gibson.)
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 severally agreed to.
Execution of Scheme by Local Authority.
Clause 11 (Execution of scheme by sanitary authority).
Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 7, to leave out "may," and insert "shall."—(Colonel King-Harman.)
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12 (Conditions of lettings).
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, he wished to propose an Amendment to this clause, to remedy what he thought must have been an oversight. In Clause 11 it was provided that, under certain circumstances, power should be given to the sanitary authorities to either lease or grant a lease to carry out the Act. That was all intelligible and plain; but when they came to this clause a marginal note said "conditions of lettings," and that applied directly to lettings by the sanitary authorities. He proposed to provide that those who had neglected their duty should be equally bound by this clause as by Clause 11.
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, at end of Clause, to add—"The conditions in this section contained shall apply and extend to the assignees or lessees of the sanitary authority in respect of any purchased lands sold or let under the next preceding section."—(Mr. Gibson.)Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13 (Completion of scheme on failure by sanitary authority).
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, he would 1781 move an Amendment on behalf of his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with the object of providing that in a case where a purchase had been arranged, but in two years it was not completed, the landlord should have an opportunity of repurchasing the land at a price to be arranged.
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, line 13, after "dwellings," to insert,—"The said land shall, in case the person from whom the same was acquired, his heirs or assigns, so requires, be reconveyed to him or them at the price paid for the same by the sanitary authority, or if such person, his heirs or assigns, omits, after one month's notice, to signify his or their intention to repurchase on such terms, then."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he had an Amendment which went to a similar point; but he should prefer his Amendment, because he considered that, where land was compulsorily taken, it should not be essential that the owner should have to watch for two years, and then, if he did not claim within one month, should lose the chance of repurchasing his land. He thought it was also essential that the land should be handed back to him in generally as good condition as when it was taken. The third part of his Amendment proposed that he should be paid for having been kept out of his land; and in the case of small owners, who would have to spend money and would be put to inconvenience in getting the land back again, he proposed that they should receive a certain amount per cent per annum. He should not hold to that; but he thought the Local Government Board ought to give an option to the landlord to repurchase, and that he should not be obliged to watch the time for claiming a right of resumption.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, the hon. and gallant Member opposite was under a misconception. His Amendment would not do at all, because it proposed that the Local Government Board should hand back in as good condition land which, perhaps, might never again be as good land as it had been. He thought that what was the substance of the hon. and gallant Member's Amendment was amply carried out by that now before the Committee.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, there were small plots of land which let extremely high close to large towns for conacre. Suppose bricks were put upon those plots and then handed back in that condition, they would be absolutely valueless. He did not think he was asking too much in asking that the land should be given back in the condition in which it was when taken, and that something should be given to the owner to prevent his being a loser.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, he should move to amend the Amendment by inserting, in the second line of the Amendment, after "them," and before "at the price," the words—
In the condition as suitable for agricultural or grazing purposes, as it was when originally taken possession of.He supposed that his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel King-Harman) had no objection to the words of his Amendment. All the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested was that if land were let as agricultural land, they ought to get it back as agricultural land; and if it was pastoral land, they should get it back as pastoral land. This appeared to him a very reasonable proposition.Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment—
To insert, after the words "re-conveyed to him or them," the words "in a condition at least as suitable for agricultural or grazing purposes as it was when it was originally taken possession of."—(Mr. Gibson.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that if the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland saw his way to accept this proposal, he would not offer any opposition. The ground might have undergone operations which might have made it less valuable for agricultural or grazing purposes, but which might have made it more valuable for other purposes. It might have been cleared, for instance, and the landlord might find it advisable to use it for building purposes. It might not suit the landlord's purpose to have the land re-conveyed to him in the condition in which it was originally taken possession of.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)advised the 1783 hon. Member for Galway (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) to accept the Amendment.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR, said, he would assent to the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 (Power to purchase lands).
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he saw that reference was made to the Lands Clauses Act, and he desired to know how that Act would affect the case of commons lands? If the Board wished to acquire commons land, how would the occupier of such land be brought into contact with the Board? The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland would understand him. There was not a great deal of commons land in Ireland; but there were certain commons lands on which people had squatted, and on which the buildings were of a very miserable character, and which it would be most desirable to improve. He would like to know whether this branch of the subject had been considered?
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secreretary to the Lord Lieutenant had not had an opportunity of considering the subject up to the present. What, however, the hon. and gallant Gentleman had in view was not, perhaps, that which could strictly be called commons land. If a person built a house after he had squatted for a certain length of time he acquired the fee-simple of the land on which it was built, and that matter could be dealt with under this Act like any other matter. He had now to propose the Amendment which stood in his name.
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, line 33, after the word "Act," to insert—"In the case of any purchase of lands otherwise than by agreement, such purchase, and the provisions of the Provisional Order relating thereto, shall, at the option of the owner of the lands, estate, or interest proposed to be purchased, be at an end in the following events:—
- (a.) In cases in which the owner of the lands, estate, or interest shall have become entitled to a certificate under the fourteenth section of 'The Railways (Ireland) Act, 1851,' if the purchase money is demanded by such owner, and
1784 remains unpaid for a period of thirty days or upwards after such demand; - (b.) In cases falling within the eighteenth or nineteenth sections of 'The Railways (Ireland) Act, 1851,' if the sanitary authority make default for a period of thirty days or upwards in dealing with the purchase money as provided by those sections respectively;
Provided, That the election of the owner of the lands, estate, or interest to declare such purchase to be at an end shall be notified by him in writing to the sanitary authority within a period not exceeding thirty days after the expiration of the time limited by this section, within which the purchase money should be paid or otherwise dealt with as aforesaid."—(Mr Attorney General for Ireland.)Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. PARNELLasked the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he thought there would be time for the negotiation of the loan by the sanitary authority within 30 days? It seemed to him (Mr. Parnell) to be a very short time to allow.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, he thought there would be sufficient time, provided despatch were used on the part of the sanitary authority; and, of course, it was to the interest of all parties that such despatch should be observed.
Amendment agreed to.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he had an Amendment on the Paper to insert, in line 36, after "shall," the words—
Be given back to the original owner in a state suitable for agricultural or grazing purposes, subject to a repayment of the sum originally paid for it less by the amount of fifteen per centum per annum, or, if the original owner shall, after one clear month's notice, decline to repurchase on such terms, shall.Having reference, however, to what had gone before, he should like to leave out the words "less by the amount of fifteen per cent per annum." He, therefore, intended to move the Amendment with the omission of those words.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, that in order to meet the views of the hon. and gallant Gentleman he would insert in the next Amendment, which stood in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, the words recently proposed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman and 1785 adopted by the Committee. The right hon. and learned Gentleman then proposed the Amendment standing in the name of Mr. Trevelyan, with the addition of the words he had just referred to.
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, line 37, after the word "Act," to insert the words—"In case the person from whom such lands were acquired, his heirs or assigns, so requires, be reconveyed to him or them in a condition at least as suitable for agricultural or grazing purposes as it was when it was originally taken possession of, at the price paid for such lands by the sanitary authority, or if such person, his heirs or assigns, omits, after one month's notice, to signify his intention to repurchase such land, on such terms, shall."—(The Attorney General for Ireland.)Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 15 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
§ MR. O'SULLIVAN (for Mr. VILLIERS STUART)proposed, in page 6, after Clause 10, to insert the following Clause:—
(Power to sanitary authority to enforce under section four of Labourers' Cottages and Allotments (Ireland) Act, 1882.)In any case in which an order has been made or shall he made under section three of 'The Labourers' Cottages and Allotments (Ireland) Act, 1882,' or under section nineteen of The Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881,' for providing accommodation for the labourers employed on any holding, and such order has not been complied with within six months after the date of such order, it shall be the duty of the sanitary authority of the district in which such holding is situate to make such complaint as mentioned in, and to put in force, the provisions of section four of 'The Labourers' Cottages and Allotments (Ireland) Act, 1882.'New Clause brought up, and read the first time.Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANinquired whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland had examined the clause and found whether it came within the purview of the Act?
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)Certainly.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, he was not quite sure whether it might not be desirable to retain the word "officer" in place of the word "authority," and so leave the clause in the form in which it originally 1786 stood on the Paper. It might be well to have two strings to the bow, and employ the words "sanitary officer" as well as the words "sanitary authority." The difficulty to contend against was that the sanitary authorities were mainly composed of persons who had neglected to carry out the order that had to be enforced. It could not do the slightest harm to give power to sanitary officers, as well as to the sanitary authorities, to enforce the order.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, there was a difficulty, of course, in finding who was the proper authority to put the law in motion; but if they adopted the words "sanitary officer," it might lead to inconvenience, because there were a great many sanitary officers in each district, and what was the duty of everybody was generally the duty of no one. The duty might be imposed upon the clerk to the sanitary authority. It would then be the duty of the clerk to the Union in each case to enforce the Order.
§ COLONEL KING HARMANsaid, his experience was that whenever they placed fresh duties upon clerks of Unions, the latter expected to get fresh pay; and if their expectations were not realized in this respect, they did not do the work required of them. He should be disposed to leave the duty to the sanitary authority.
§ MR. O'SULLIVANsaid, he was afraid that if they left the enforcement of the Order to the Clerk of the Union, the Order would not be enforced.
Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORproposed to insert the following Clause, after Clause 17:—
(Extension of Artizans' Dwellings Act, 1875, to certain towns.)The Artizans' and Labourers' Improvement Act, 1875, as amended by any Act or Acts, shall extend to all urban sanitary districts in Ireland containing, according to the last published census, a population of twelve thousand and upwards; and also to any other urban sanitary district in Ireland to which the Local Government may by Provisional Order declare that the said Act shall extend.Such Provisional Order may be made by the Local Government Board in the manner in which Provisional Orders are made by them under 'The Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878.'No such Provisional Order shall be made except upon the petition of the urban sanitary 1787 authority of such sanitary district, nor, in the event of any objection being taken to such petition, until after a local inquiry with respect to such petition has been held by the Local Government Board.The hon. Gentleman said, that anyone acquainted with the position of the labourers of Ireland would know that a large number of them took refuge in miserable hovels in small towns. The Committee would only half complete the good work they were doing if they did not make some provision for such men, and this was the object of the clause which he now proposed should be read a second time.New Clause brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, that at first sight the clause did not appear exactly in consonance with the scope of the Bill. He should like to consider the matter between this and Report, and see what could be done.
§ MR. HEALYsuggested that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should allow the clause to be inserted, and that on Report he should strike it out if necessary, or make such modifications in it as might appear advisable.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, he would be willing to adopt such a plan.
§ COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, he hoped that the right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland would stand to his original proposition. He (Colonel King-Harman) did not think less of agricultural labourers living in towns than of those who lived in the country; but the Committee had as yet had no time whatever to consider this clause.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, that the question of artizans' dwellings had been exhaustively discussed when the Artizans' and Labourers' Improvement Bills were brought in; and it was again discussed in 1878, when the Public Health (Ireland) Act was introduced. The authorities in Ireland, who looked into that matter, were of opinion that the fixing of a limit to the operation of the Bills was of immense importance. He did not profess to have any objection to the clause; but he considered that the mat- 1788 ter was one which required great consideration. He hoped the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland would be adopted, and that the matter would be left to be considered by him before the stage of Report. It was very proper that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should have an opportunity of consulting his official Colleagues, and that he should be guided, to a great extent, by their opinions on the subject.
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, he thought the course suggested by his hon. Friend the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) would be the most convenient one to adopt—namely, that they should insert the clause in the Bill, and consider it more fully on Report. If it were inserted in the Bill, they would be able to consider it properly in its relation to the rest of the Bill. It would certainly be to the interest of the Irish labourers that this clause should be inserted.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER)said, he had no objection to the clause being read a second time; but, of course, the Government would reserve to themselves the right to deal with it as they thought fit on Report.
Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.