HC Deb 06 August 1883 vol 282 cc1650-6
MR. JOHN MORLEY

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, having regard to his declaration on August 10, 1882, in respect of an imputed design of occupying Egypt for an indefinite time, that undoubtedly of all things in the world that is a thing we are not going to do, and, considering the expectation of the Secretary of State for War, expressed this spring, that six months represented with probable accuracy the length of time that it may be necessary to keep our troops in Egypt, Whether the intentions thus expressed have been communicated to the other Powers of Europe; and, whether any circumstances have occurred to lead Her Majesty's Government to change these intentions; and, if not, whether he will now, or before the Recess, inform the House of the steps that the Government propose to take in order to give effect to their various pledges to Parliament and Foreign Powers in this matter?

MR. BOURKE

Sir, perhaps I may be permitted, at the same time, to ask a Question of which I have given the right hon. Gentleman private Notice. I have called his attention to two paragraphs in the despatch of Lord Dufferin of February 6, which, perhaps, I had better read for the information of the House. The first paragraph is— A succession of unexpected events, over which we have had no control, and which we had done our best to avert, has compelled us to enter Egypt single handed, to occupy its capital and principal towns with an English force, and to undertake the restoration of a settled Government. As a consequence, responsibilities have been imposed upon us. Europe and the Egyptian people, whom we have undertaken to rescue from anarchy, have a alike right to require that our intervention should be beneficent and its results enduring; that it should obviate all danger of future perturbations, and that it should have established on sure foundations the principles of justice, liberty, and public happiness. The second paragraph is— Unless the Egyptian people are convinced that we intend to shield and foster the system we have established, it will be in vain to expect the timid politicians of the East to identify themselves with its exissence. But even this will not be enough. We must also provide that the tasks intrusted to the new political apparatus do not overtax its untried strength. The situation of the country is too critical. The problems immediately pressing on the attention of its Rulers are too vital to be tampered with, even in the interests of political philosophy. Various circumstances have combined to render the actual condition of the Egyptian fellah extremely precarious. His relations with his European creditors are becoming dangerously strained. The agriculture of the country is rapidly deteriorating, the soil having become exhausted from overcropping and other causes. The labour of the corvée is no longer equal to the cleansing of the Canal. As a consequence, the desert is encroaching on the cultivated land, and unless some remedy be quickly found the, finances of the country will be compromised. With such an accumulation of difficulties, Native statesmanship, even though supplemented by the new-born institutions, will hardly be able to cope, unless assisted for a time by our sympathy and guidance. Under these circumstances, I would venture to submit that we can hardly consider the work of re-organization complete, or the responsibilities imposed on us by circumstances adequately discharged, until we have seen Egypt shake herself free from the initial embarrassments which I have enumerated. Even then the stability of our handiwork will not be assured, unless it is clearly understood by all concerned that no subversive influence will intervene between England and the Egypt she has re-created. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is the determination of Her Majesty's Government, that our intervention in Egypt shall be "beneficent," and its results "enduring;" that it shall obviate all danger of "future perturbations;" and, whether it is clearly understood by Foreign Powers that "no subversive influence will intervene between England and the Egypt she has recreated?"

SIR WILFRID LAWSON

One word. I only wish to ask the Primo Minister whether it is not the case that, in a despatch, dated April 29, Lord Duffer in declares that the material tranquillity of the country is absolute from one end to the other?

MR. GLADSTONE

I think there is considerable variety of intention in the Questions which have been put to me; but I do not feel that there is any difficulty in replying to them. With regard to the last Question, my memory is not quite fresh; but I believe my hon. Friend is accurate in his reference. So far as relates to the re-establishment of tranquillity, nothing could be more satisfactory than the effects produced in Egypt, not merely by the presence of a British Force, but through the re-orga- nizing operations steadily in progress. With respect to the original Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Morley), I think I can answer him very briefly by saying there is no change whatever in the views of Her Majesty's Government, as they have been expressed on a variety of occasions; and although expressed by several Members of the Government, yet, so far as I have been able to review the various statements, they were characterized by great unity of purpose and even, perhaps, of expression. With regard to the second paragraph of the Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle, which mentions six months as representing with tolerable accuracy the length of time that might be necessary for keeping the British troops in Egypt, my noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington) was, I think, careful, when he mentioned that period, to state that he gave that estimate by way of conjecture and approximation only, and gave nothing at all approaching the character of an engagement or a pledge. Then my hon. Friend asks whether the intention thus expressed was communicated to the other Powers of Europe. No intention was communicated to the other Powers of Europe, having reference to a particular term—either of months or of years; but the other Powers of Europe, I think, are well aware of the general intentions entertained by the British Government—intentions which may be subject, of course, to due consideration of the state of circumstances, but conceived and held to be in the nature not only of information, but of a pledge or engagement. With regard to the Question of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bourke) he has read two paragraphs which, though of considerable length—probably greater than are usually embedied in Questions before the House—yet form only an infinitesimal part of a very long and very able despatch of Lord Dufferin's, in which he has summed up the result of his assiduous exertions, and I am not aware upon what principle two or three expressions have been picked and culled from that despatch. I see nothing to object to in the idea conveyed by those expressions; and regarding, in common with my Colleagues, the despatch as a whole, we are of opinion that it affords a very worthy and very remarkable record of labours, pursued with great assiduity and with great ability, and attended, I think, with results by no means insignificant in proportion to the time occupied. But I will refer more particularly to the Question of the right hon. Gentleman, thanking him for giving me Notice in reference to those words on which he dwelt. I cannot say that it is the Determination of the Government that our intervention shall be beneficent, and its results enduring; but, undoubtedly, it is the desire of the Government, the hope and view of the Government, and their intention, so far as it is in their power, to command the circumstances in conjunction with which they work, and that these enduring results shall, humanly speaking, aim at not merely securing the tranquillity of the moment, but likewise at obviating further perturbations. When I am asked as to the withdrawal of the British Forces from Egypt, I would ask the House to bear in mind that while Egyptian institutions have been in process of re-organization, that deplorable event, the arrival of the cholera, has very seriously disturbed and delayed operations in that country. It has, to some extent, interfered with the collection of the Revenue, and has introduced the necessity of considering some questions in reference to that Revenue. It has, therefore, tended rather to slacken the progress of the work in which we have been engaged; and it prevents me, at this moment—though it is quite true that the time conjectured by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War is on the eve of expiration—it prevents me being able to anticipate any very early withdrawal of the troops. It is our desire, unquestionably, that when we leave Egypt we should leave behind us something more firm and stable than the fabric which was lately overthrown. We cannot, in such a case, command the future; all that we can do is to take means which are rational and equitable with reference to the future; and, so estimating the matter, I think that would be a fair description of our intention as it has been repeatedly stated in Parliament, and as I would state it in these few and slight words now. Of course, I am aware, and the House will be aware, that no full or comprehensive view can well be comprised within the few sen- tences I can use on this occasion. One word I must add as to the latter part of the Question of the right hon. Gentleman. He asks, if it is clearly understood by Foreign Powers that no subversive influences will intervene between England and Egypt? It would be rather presumptuous in me to undertake to say what is clearly understood by Foreign Powers. It is enough, I think, to answer for our own understanding and information. I believe, however, that Foreign Powers are substantially well informed respecting the views and intentions of the British Government in Egypt; and I may say, likewise, that we have no ground whatever to anticipate any unfair, unfriendly, or unreasonable opposition on their part to any of the proceedings which we are taking with a view, not to any selfish aim, but for the benefit of Egypt itself.

MR. BOURKE

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether any Papers will be laid on the Table shortly with respect to the communications which have passed on this subject between Her Majesty's Government and Foreign Powers?

MR. GLADSTONE

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly give Notice of that Question, because I am not aware how far there has been very recent communications.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I would like to know whether we are to understand that the assurances of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War, of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and of Lord Granville, will hold good—namely, that the aim and object of Her Majesty's Government is the withdrawal from Egypt, and not, as has been suggested in some organs of the Press, to convert a temporary occupancy into a permanent Protectorate, direct or indirect, or to acquire any rights that will not be possessed by any other of the Great Powers?

MR. GLADSTONE

I have, I think, already used the expressions by which, in the mass, the declarations of the views of Her Majesty's Government have been made on various occasions. I am not aware that in any part of those declarations there is anything inconsistent with what I have said; but to select any particular expression might tend to disarrange what may be called the balance of expression.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Bearing in mind that we have no information from Egypt of' a later date, I think, than the middle of May, I wish to put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman. We understand Her Majesty's Government have been endeavouring to organize in Egypt a considerable number of institutions, and to introduce various improvements in the administration of that country, and that they are at present retaining our Forces there for the support of the work they are doing. What I think the House and the country wish to know is, whether the operations for the re-organization of Egyptian institutions are proceeding satisfactorily, and are nearly completed; and whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to retain our Forces there—I do not say for any definite time, but until such time as the new institutions shall have been placed upon a secure footing and seem likely to be able to stand by themselves?

MR. GLADSTONE

I have no difficulty in referring to the previous declarations which we have made—that we went to Egypt to accomplish certain work, and that the accomplishment of that work must necessarily lead to the measure of our continuance there. Unquestionably, the attainment of a stage of progress with the new institutions which, all things considered, would afford reasonable hope in the future for their working in a manner satisfactory to the people and Government of that country, is the essential, the very basis, in fact, of the whole of our policy in the matter. I may say that when I saw my hon. Friend's Question put down I made a communication to Lord Duffer in, to which I have only just received an answer. I have not been able to read it; but if I find in it any explanation of detail which I think will be of interest I will take care, probably to-morrow, to make it known to the House.

MR. M'COAN

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether there was any truth in the statement that Sir Rivers Wilson had been appointed to succeed Sir Auckland Colvin as Financial Adviser to the Khedive?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I have not seen that statement anywhere.