SECOND READING.

HC Deb 24 April 1883 vol 278 cc1011-52

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir Charles Forster.)

MR. HICKS

said, that, in rising to move that the second reading of the Bill be put off until that day six months, he would venture to trouble the House with very few remarks, in order to explain why ho stood there in the position of Mover of this Amendment upon a Bill of such great importance, for the importance of the Bill was acknowledged by a considerable number of Members sitting in all parts of the House. He believed it was also acknowledged, in very strong terms, by the President of the Board of Trade. But when this Bill was originally put down for a second reading there was nobody in the House to object to the Motion, and he therefore took upon himself the duty of taking that course; and, having done so, he put down the Amendment which now stood in his name upon the Paper. He begged to move that Amendment; and he did so in the full confidence that the House would take care, before the Bill was passed, that justice was done to the ratepayers of this great Metropolis. In proposing the Amendment ho had no wish to stop legislation; but he wished to afford the promoters of the Bill an opportunity of coming to terms with the authorities of the Metropolis—namely, the Metropolitan Board of Works, who owned the road over the Embankment, and the Gardens which had been constructed upon it, and which had been made at great expense for the benefit, health, and use of the people of the Metropolis, and which it was most desirable should not be interfered with or destroyed. But he was sorry to say that up to this time no such agreement had been come to; but there were Amendments upon the Paper which might, and he trusted would, have the effect of carrying out the object he had in view, and which, if they had been accepted, would have rendered it unnecessary to press this Motion to a division. He begged the House to bear in mind the position in which they were now placed. They were told that they were trying to take away a privilege that had been conferred upon a Railway Company in a former Session. Now, he did not wish to do anything of the kind. He had too great a respect for the rights of property to wish to take anything away which belonged either to an individual or to a Corporation; but because he did not wish to have the rights of property taken away, that was no reason why he should confer further gifts; and, if those who had obtained powers without the knowledge of the House wore asking now for further benefits, he thought the House would agree with him that they were perfectly justified in refusing to confer those further benefits until the interests of the public were duly protected, and the power of injuring this Embankment and these public Gardens was taken away, or, at any rate, greatly modified. He had been told that it was the duty of the House to have known the nature of the Bill before they passed it. But was there anybody in the House who would contend seriously for one moment that it was possible, or in the power of any Member of the House, to read the contents of every Private Bill? Such Bills were sent up to a Select Committee; and up to this year Select Committees had never, apparently, for a long period felt themselves called upon to report to the House any special or particular circumstance connected with the Bills submitted to them. That course of proceeding, he was glad to say, had been considerably modified by the new Standing Order, passed this Session, with regard to Private Bills introduced into that House; and it would be the duty now of all Committees upon Private Bills to draw the distinct attention of the House to anything contained in the measure submitted to them of a novel or unprecedented character. He was quite sure that if the attention of the House had been drawn to any proposal calculated to injure and destroy the Thames Embankment, and the Gardens laid out upon it, the House would never have listened to it for a moment for the purpure of conferring a benefit upon a private undertaking. Hon. Members who would take the trouble to go and look at this Railway would find that some of those ventilators were placed within 140 yards of a station—for instance, the ventilator at Charing Cross was within 140 yards of the station, and the ventilator nearest to the House of Commons was within 220 yards of the Westminster Station, the opening over which the Railway Company were themselves proposing to make smaller than it was by constructing a bridge which would materially reduce its ventilating power. As he had said, he had no wish to stop legislation; and he hoped some arrangement would be come to, before a division was taken, by which the interests of the public might be fairly and duly protected. But until that arrangement had been come to he should persevere with the Amendment which stood in his name, and which he now begged to move—namely, that the Bill be read a second time upon that day six months.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(Mr. Hicks.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

MR. ANDERSON

said, he had listened attentively to the speech of the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, who had moved the rejection of the Bill; and the only ground upon which the hon. Member appeared to have moved it was that certain powers had been given to the Railway Company without the knowledge of the House. He entirely denied that those powers had been conferred without the knowledge of the House, any more than that any provision in every kind of Bill they passed was without the knowledge of the House. He took it that everything they did through their Committee was done with the knowledge of the House, and was afterwards confirmed by the House when they consented to the second reading of the Bill. It was, therefore, quite an idle argument to say that anything done in that way was done without the knowledge of the House. If they once began this system of overhauling the work of the Private Bill Committees in these matters, where would it end? If, two years after, one of those Private Bill Committees had sat upon a question, had taken all possible evidence upon it, had sifted it to the utmost, and had given certain powers to a Railway Company—if, after such Bill had gone through the House of Lords, where it would have undergone the very same process of sifting and searching, and the powers were confirmed to the Railway Company, this House was to re-open such questions two years afterwards, in this way there would be no end to such an objectionable system. A great deal more had been made of this question than it deserved. A most absurd fuss had been made about a very small matter. ["Oh!"] Hon. Members who cried "Oh! oh!" he ventured to say, had not seen these structures. ["Oh! oh!"] Let hon. Members walk along the Embankment, and he was bound to say that if they did not go for the purpose of seeing these ventilators they would never see them at all. No doubt, the newspapers said they were to be 20 feet high; but the height of them was only eight feet, and they were about 20 feet long. They were to be covered with greenery; and in place of a building hideously ugly they would have a structure which would be rather ornamental than otherwise, or, at all events, not half as ugly as the long stretch of dead wall put up behind the Duke of Buccleuch's property and that of the Board of Trade. These structures would neither be so high or so ugly as that long dead wall, and not one-tenth degree as ugly as a certain hideous red brick building which had been put up at Charing Cross by the Metropolitan Board of Works; and yet the Metropolitan Board of Works came there protesting against the destruction of the Embankment, although they themselves had been erecting this hideous brick building. It was said that it was only a temporary building; but it was manifestly intended for a permanent one, and it would spoil the Embankment much more than these ventilators. It was a building 80 feet long and some 20 feet high, and hideously ugly in every respect. It had been said that the Railway Company had sold certain land which they might have used for ventilators, and that if they had used that land for ventilators it would not have been necessary have put up these structures. He should like any hon. Member who knew the fact to point out what land the Railway Company had sold. He was informed, and he believed it was true, that they had sold no land whatever East of Westminster Bridge that could have been so used. A great deal had also been said about certain girders being put up at the Westminster Bridge Station, which, it was asserted, would interfere with the ventilation of the Railway. They would not interfere in the least with the ventilation of the Railway; and, although it was alleged that they would interfere with the ventilation of the station, that also was not the fact. He should like to give the history of these girders, because it was a rather curious one, as far as the Metropolitan Board of Works were concerned. The Railway Company owned a piece of land on the north of the Railway facing the back street. They sold that land some years ago—six, eight, or 10 years ago—and they sold it under the condition that if the purchaser of the land ever required access to the Embankment, the Railway Company should allow him to bridge over the line so as to connect that piece of land with the Embankment. The only way he could get across the Embankment was by buying a piece of land belonging to the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Railway Company wanted to purchase the same piece of land for the improvement of their station; but the Metropolitan Board of Works would not sell it to the Railway Company, although they actually Bold it to the owners of the piece of land on the other side of the line, and by that sale they brought into play the old condition that the purchaser was to be allowed to connect it with the Embankment by a bridge over the Railway. Therefore, in reality, the connection was that of the Metropolitan Board of Works, and not of the Railway Company. It was, however, only 16 feet wide, and it was a mere passage that would not interfere with the ventilation of the tunnel or the Railway at all. He might say that he did not care a straw for the Railway itself. The Railway Company were well able to defend themselves, and it was not in their interests that he took up the question, or was induced to speak upon it; it was simply and solely in the interests of those who used the Railway. He used it himself constantly; and, therefore, he knew the enormous improvement which had taken place in consequence of the construction of these ventilators. There were probably more travellers who passed through that tunnel in the course of an hour than went along the Embankment in a week, and perhaps a great many more than that. The Railway actually carried 30,000,000 of passengers in the course of a year. There were 32 trains passing over the line, taking the two ways, every hour; and with trains passing every two minutes there must necessarily be a constant cloud of smoke in the tunnel. There was no time for it to escape; at least, there was no time for it to escape before these ventilators were made. There could be no time for the smoke of one train to escape before the smoke of another train filled the tunnel up again. The result was not only that the passengers down below were choked, but there was a very considerable amount of risk attached to the working of the line. The Railway officers could not see the signals, and there might have been any day, if anything exceptional happened, some terrible calamity. If the House wont back now upon this proposal and caused the ventilators to be shut up, they might depend upon it that some calamity of that kind might any day occur through their action, and he would ask thorn to think twice before they ran the risk of doing that; because, while there were 30 trains per hour now, there would be a great deal more shortly, and they would be every day increasing in number, until they became as numerous as it was possible for the Railway to run. Therefore, it was not only for the health of the passengers, but for the safety of the travelling public, that it was absolutely necessary these ventilators should be preserved. The history which had been given of the ventilators was not quite correct. The Committee of the House did not absolutely provide them; they did not fix the plans; but they simply gave the power, and desired the Railway Company to enter into negotiations with the Metropolitan Board of Works as to where the places should be, their position, and the nature of the openings. The Railway Company very properly went to the Metropolitan Board of Works; but the Metropolitan Board of Works kept them at arms' length, and declined to negotiate with them at all. At last the Railway Company were obliged to go to the Board of Trade to get an Arbitrator appointed to settle the matter. The Board of Trade appointed Captain Galton. Captain Galton went over the matter again, took evidence, and, after an inquiry, fixed the openings, and actually drew the plans for them. Captain Galton gave his award in February in this year, and it was only since then that the award had been acted upon. The Metropolitan Board of Works knew quite well for two years that the work was about to be done; and yet, after the Bill of the Railway Company passed, which it did in the year 1881, they did not offer to bring in a new Bill, nor did they in 1882 offer to bring in a new Bill; and it was not until after the month of February in this year that they attempted to get the Standing Order set aside in order that they might bring in a Bill to undo the work which the Railway Company were trying to do. The Standing Order Committee very properly refused to listen to their application; and he hoped the House would also refuse to do anything towards re-opening the question. He bad nothing more to say, beyond expressing a hope that the House would think twice before destroying the work of its own creation. He trusted the House would support him in maintaining the decision of its own Committee, and that it would refuse to adopt the Amendment which had been moved for the rejection of the Bill.

MR. EVANS

said, ho hoped the House would allow him to address them for a few moments, as he had been the Chairman of the Select Committee to which the Bill, which had been so much criticized, and which contained the power to construct the ventilators, had been referred. He was not in a position at that moment to go into the acts of the Committee, nor had he a copy of the Evidence; and if he had, he did not think the House would thank him very much if he were to lay before them the Evidence which induced the Committee to arrive at their decision. He would, therefore, only say that the whole matter was gone into very fully indeed, and that it was thoroughly sifted; and in the course of the inquiry all the different bodies and individuals concerned, not only on the part of the City of London, but of the Metropolitan Board of Works and private individuals, as well as the Railway Company itself, were represented before them, and all heard at great length. The whole matter was thoroughly and fully considered, and he might add that there was no difference of opinion on the part of any Member of the Committee, in the decision that was arrived at. The result, therefore, was that the powers now in question had been conferred upon the Railway Company with the full sanction of every Member of the Committee. At that time it was admitted on all hands to be a very desirable thing in itself that the Metropolitan Underground Railway should be thoroughly ventilated. An enormous number of the public made use of the railway. He made very little use of it himself; but he knew that others did, and the traffic upon it was so great that it was of the highest importance it should be well ventilated. There could not be two opinions about that. The only question was, how that ventilation could best be carried into effect; and whether it could be carried into effect without causing serious inconvenience to those who were accustomed to pass through the streets and gardens running over the top of the Underground Railway? The Select Committee wont into the question very carefully, and they came to the conclusion that the proposed plan would not cause any serious inconvenience, either to the public who used the streets, or to the gardens above the Metropolitan Railway. As the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) had just stated, the Metropolitan Board of Works were applied to to arrange the mode in which the ventilators were to be constructed; and when it was found that they were unable to arrange it, the Board of Trade were applied to, and the Board of Trade referred the Company to Captain Galton as to the manner in which the ventilators were to be built. There appeared to be a great difference of opinion as to the effect produced by the ventilators since they have been erected. Some Gentlemen said they were a great nuisance and a great eyesore; whereas others said that if any impartial person would walk along the Embankment he would soon convince himself that they were no nuisance whatever. Now, he had walked along the Embankment himself, and he had certainly arrived at the conlusion that the nuisance and inconvenience caused by the ventilators had been very much exaggerated. If his attention had not been drawn to the matter, and if there had not been a discussion of it in the newspapers and else- where, he did not think he should have observed these ventilators at all as he walked along the Embankment. He did not mean to say that the structures in question were very beautiful; but he did say that they were not disfiguring, and they were not offensive; and when they were overgrown with ivy and other plants they would be far loss conspicuous than they were at present. He had examined them on various occasions, and he had certainly been able to see very little steam coming from them; so little, indeed, that it would hardly be noticed unless special attention was directed to it. That was all he had to say in regard to the ventilators. The hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Hicks), who had moved that the Bill now before the House should be read upon that day six months, did not appear to know anything about the Bill; and he (Mr. Evans) must say that it would be a very strong measure if the House rejected the Bill, which was unobjectionable in itself, because something had been done two years ago in connection with the Railway Company in applying for another Bill which was objectionable. Such a course would be most unfair towards the Company who were promoting the Bill. The hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill, as far as he could understand him—and he had listened to the hon. Member's speech very carefully—did not mention a single objectionable feature of the Bill itself. All that the hon. Member said was that certain things had been done before, and that those things ought to be put an end to; but as to the provisions of the Bill itself, he had no objection to urge against them. Under those circumstances, all he (Mr. Evans) could say was, that if the House were to reject a Bill that was unobjectionable in itself, because something had been done that ought not to have been done two years ago, it would be a very strong measure indeed, and he hoped the House would not give its assent to such a course.

SIR ARTHUR OTWAY

desired to say a word upon the matter, because he really thought the Motion before the House was a very unusual one, and required some notice from him in the position which he at present occupied. In point of fact, the question of the ventilators was not before the House at all. There was no question whatever in the Bill about the ventilators; and he hoped that now the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Hicks) had directed attention to the point which he wished to raise, he would not consider it necessary to persevere with the Motion that the Bill should not be read a second time. The Bill was drawn in the ordinary language, as far as he could see, that was contained in all Railway Bills; there was certainly no objection of such a nature as should induce the House to refuse to give a second reading to the Bill. As far as he had gathered from the speech of the hon. Member, his only objection was to the erection of the ventilators on the Embankment and in the City; but if the hon. Member were to succeed in inducing the House to reject the second reading of the Bill, by that very act he would stand in the way of bringing about that which he himself wished to do—namely, to produce that modification of, or to do away altogether with, the ventilators. It would be far better to read the Bill a second time, and then to proceed with another Motion which stood upon the Paper; because the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott) would then move, after the second reading of the Bill, that an Instruction should be given to the Committee which would enable them to deal with that subject. They had excited themselves, if he were allowed to say so, somewhat prematurely upon the question of the ventilators; and he advised the House to confine themselves to the simple Motion before them, which was that the Bill, which, as far as he could see, in none of its clauses touched the ventilators, should be read a second time. He submitted to the House that there was no reason whatever why the second reading of the Bill should not be acceded to.

SIR JAMES M'GAREL-HOGG

joined in the appeal of his hon. Friend the Chairman of Committees to the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Hicks) not to press the Amendment upon this occasion; and, in doing so, he felt called upon to take advantage of the opportunity for answering a few of the observations which had been made. The hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) had tried to make out a case against the Metropolitan Baard of Works in regard to some red brick building which they had put up upon the Embankment. He did not think the hon. Member knew very much about the place. All that he could say was that it was only a temporary building to enable the Embankment to be lighted by electricity, and he hoped that it would not be a permanent one. His argument about destroying the Gardens and the roadway by the construction of these ventilators was a very different thing indeed from the question of this building, which was only a temporary measure in regard to the lighting of the Embankment in a better way than it had been lighted before. The hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) had also spoken about the land; but where the hon. Member got his facts from he could not understand. He must have got them from his own imagination. The land was sold; and all he could say about it was that it was sold to the St. Stephen's Club for the purpose of enlarging their building. If they had not chosen to do so it was no fault of the Metropolitan Board of Works. He had no recollection whatever, and knew nothing about any arrangement that might have been made by the Railway Company in the event of access being required over the station to the Embankment. He thought the hon. Member made the case a great deal worse when he assumed that the Railway Company always had the intention, when they got a certain number of openings, of not utilizing them for their own purposes, but of selling them to some other persons, and then, when they had sold them, of trying to take away from the Gardens and the public the property for which they had not paid a single farthing, and for which they did not propose to pay anything. He made his hon. Friend a present of his own argument; but he did not think it would do him much good. All he could say was that when the Metropolitan Board of Works, together with the City authorities, came before the Committee, they called the most able engineers, who showed that there were plenty of means for ventilating the Railway without in any way erecting these hideous structures in the public streets and gardens. He might add that the Railway Company brought before Captain Galton 15 different kinds of ventilators, all of them hideous ones, and one of them of tremendous length, which was proposed to be put up opposite the House of Commons. He only wished, with all his heart, that Captain Galton had passed that one, because it would have brought home to the minds of hon. Members the destruction and disfigurement that were contemplated; and they would have seen that there were even more objectionable methods of ventilating the Railway than those which had been adopted. He hoped the House would accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Rochester (Sir Arthur Otway), and that the division would not be taken upon the second reading of the Bill. He desired to show all fairness towards the Railway Company; and he thought the division ought to be taken upon the Instruction which the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott) proposed to move. He certainly hoped that the House would pass that Instruction to the Committee not to allow these horrible structures to remain. He, therefore, hoped that the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire [Mr. Hicks) would withdraw his Amendment.

MR. MONK

said, that before the Amendment was withdrawn he wished to put a question to his hon. and gallant Friend who had just sat down. He was perfectly astonished to hear his hon. and gallant Friend say that the Metropolitan Board of Works had not received a large sum of money from the Railway Company.

SIR JAMES M'GAREL-HOGG

said, he had never stated anything of the kind.

MR. MONK

said, that his hon. and gallant Friend had kept back from the House a most important fact, because it appeared that the Railway Company had paid no less than £200,000 to the Metropolitan Board of Works, which covered permission to erect these ventilators.

SIR JAMES M'GAREL-HOGG

said, the hon. Member was entirely wrong.

MR. MONK

said, that sum was paid for the making of the Railway, involving, as he had supposed, leave to construct these ventilators.

MR. HICKS

said, he was entirely in the hands of the House; and if it was the opinion of the House that he should withdraw the Amendment—["No!"]—he should be ready to do so, on the understanding that the dis- cussion would be taken upon the Instruction to be moved afterwards by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott). On that understanding he would ask leave of the House to withdraw the Amendment. As ho had stated when he moved the rejection of the Bill, he had been placed under the necessity of moving that Amendment simply from the fact that there was nobody in the House at the time the second reading was first moved to stop the further progress of the Bill. He begged to withdraw the Amendment.

MR. SPEAKER

Is it your pleasure that the Amendment be withdrawn? ["No!"]

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, that upon that question he wished to make a remark in reference to something that had fallen from the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Evans). He was glad to hear from the hon. Member that when the Bill was before the Committee, the erection of these ventilators was strongly opposed by the City of London; because it had been made a charge against the City that they had allowed the Bill to pass without opposition.

MR. EVANS

said, the statement he had made was that the City and the Metropolitan Board of Works were both heard.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, the erection of the ventilators was opposed by the City of London, in concert with the Metropolitan Board of Works; and he wished to emphasize the fact that the Bill was passed by the House in spite of the opposition of the City and of the Metropolitan Board of Works. Against the wishes of both of those Bodies the House allowed these ventilators to be erected without any attempt to prevent it. the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) seemed to think that the ventilators were no disfigurement. He did not know whether the hon. Member ever went East from that House, because he was satisfied, from his own experience, that any hon. Member who walked from the House to Waterloo Bridge would find that the Embankment was very much spoilt by the ventilators; and, having occasion to travel very frequently by the Railway, he could not find that any inconvenience experienced from the bad ventilation of the line had been remedied by the course taken by the Railway Company.

MR. W. H. JAMES

said, he had no wish to detain the House; but there were one or two points upon which he desired to say a word. It was said to be the desire of the Railway Company that the line should be properly ventilated; but the highest authorities almost universally concurred, whatever the opinion of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) might be, that, practically, for the purposes of ventilation, these blow-holes were of no use. He also believed there was a general concurrence of opinion that it was most desirable that the public who used the Gardens, and passed along the roadway, should not be annoyed by the offensive fumes which were more or less throughout the day emitted from the ventilators. But the whole question which underlaid the matter was a very much larger question than that of the ventilators, and from that question the public would not be drawn aside. He would like to ask the Representatives of the Railway Company why, in erecting these ventilators, they took the public ground at all? Why did they not take land which belonged to private individuals? There was ample accommodation for them on such land. Why, for instance, should they not have gone to Whitehall Gardens? The reason why there was such a strong feeling in the matter was, that the Railway Company had practised upon the public something in the nature of a fraud. They had taken what belonged to the public, and they had not paid them for it. He hoped the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Hicks) would withdraw the Amendment, and that the issue would be taken on the question about to be raised by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott). Although, as a general rule, it was undesirable that the House should reverse a decision given by a Private Bill Committee only two years ago, he thought, in tins instance, the House was justified in taking the strongest possible measures for the protection of the public against what might be regarded in the nature of a swindle upon the ratepayers of this great Metropolis.

MR. GREGORY

said, it appeared to him desirable, if there was any hon. Member present who was competent to speak on behalf of the Railway Company, that he should give the House some information as to what they pro- posed to do in reference to the ventilators. In that case the Motion might be withdrawn; but, if not, and if no offer was made on the part of the Railway Company, he did not see why they should not proceed with the Motion.

MR. CROPPER

wished to say one word in reply to the remarks of hon. Members who opposed the second reading of the Bill. In the first place, it was said by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James) that, in the opinion of the very highest authorities, these ventilators were of no use in relieving the tunnel of foul air; but immediately afterwards the hon. Member said that the fumes arising from the ventilators were perceived by persons walking above. The assertion that a swindle had been committed by the Railway Company was simply outrageous. The Railway Company brought in a Bill, which went before Select Committees of both Houses, each of which considered the proposals contained in it. The question then went before an eminent engineer—Captain Galton—and everything was done in a fair and open way, the result being that the erection of the ventilators was sanctioned. He could not help thinking that this great Metropolis was immensely indebted to the Railway Company for the services it rendered to the public, and the House ought to bear with them. There was evidently some misapprehension as to the nature of the ventilators; and he thought if hon. Members would only go and look at them, they would not consider them to be the deformities they had been described. He had inspected them himself, and had travelled underneath them; and ho was convinced that the small eyesore they were was insignificant in comparison with the great advantage they conferred upon the millions who made use of the Railway. Surely it was not too much to give up a few yards of space in order to preserve the health of 30,000,000 of people who were travelling down below. So far as the smoke was concerned, he was satisfied that the steamboats upon the Thames produced far more, and made a much more offensive smell.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.

MR. MARRIOTT

said, that, in rising to move the Instruction which, stood in his name in regard to the Metropolitan District Railway Bill, he fully agreed that the House ought never lightly, and without good cause, to reverse its policy or repeal an Act it had recently passed. But, while he laid down that principle, he would also submit another proposition to the House—namely, that if the House, or a Committee of the House, had made a mistake they ought not to be above repairing it. That House was not absolutely infallible, and if it did make a mistake it alone could rectify it. The House was very much influenced by precedent; and in this case there were precedents, both of a Public Act and of a Private Act, to show that on occasion the House would reverse its policy. In the year 1854 a Bill was passed for regulating the sale of beer and other liquors on the Lord's Day. It was the 17 & 18 Vict. c. 79. In the year after—1855—that Act was repealed by the 18 & 19 Vict. c. 118, and the ground stated in the Preamble was that the Act had been found to be attended with inconvenience to the public. All he submitted was that if the Act of Parliament which had been passed allowing these ventilators to be erected had been found to work substantial inconvenience to the public, then it was clearly the duty of the House to step in— not in a vindictive spirit, nor with any desire to impose a fine on the Railway Company, but in order to do justice to all parties concerned by reversing their former decision. He did not think the House, at the present moment, was fully in possession of all the facts of the case. He was happy to find that there were hon. Members present who were on the Committee which passed the Bill, and which allowed these ventilators to be erected. He had said just now that there were two Acts of Parliament which established precedents. He had given the precedent of a Public Act which told very much, he thought, in favour of the course he was now asking the House to adopt; and he would now give the precedent of a Private Act, or rather of two Private Acts, one of them passed in 1879 and the other in 1881. The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Evans) was, he believed, the Chairman of both Committees by whom those Acts were passed, He should be very sorry to say one word that was disrespectful towards the Committee who passed the Bill to which so much objection was now taken. He had no desire to join in any declaration, as was done on a former night, against the tribunal of Select Committees. He believed that Select Committees, in the long run, were most excellent tribunals, and that all the points which were raised before them received justice at their hands; but Select Committees might make a mistake sometimes. The ventilators in Victoria Street on the Thames Embankment, and in Queen Victoria Street, were erected under the Act of 1881. Before the Select Committee in that year there appeared the Metropolitan Board of Works, the Corporation of London, the Benchers of the Inner Temple, and the Vestry of St. George's to oppose. They called as witnesses Colonel Heywood, Sir Frederick Bram-well, Sir Joseph Bazalgette, and other independent engineers, who all gave evidence that there were plenty of other means of ventilation, and that these blow-holes would not ventilate the Railway properly. The Railway Company only called their own engineer, and nobody else. The Railway Company asked for other powers, besides the erection of these ventilators in the public streets; and he wished to call the attention of the House specially to this—that they asked for compulsory powers to take land belonging to private individuals, and also power to take a tunnel close to the new City of London School on the Embankment, which ran underneath from the Embankment alongside of the Railway. That tunnel belonged to the Corporation of London, and the Railway claimed power to take it over by agreement, or on the payment of a proper sum by way of compensation. He did not wish to say a word against the Committee who gave these powers. But what did they do? That was the important part of the matter. They allowed these ventilators to be made on the public ground. They allowed the District Railway to obtain power to purchase certain property belonging to private individuals, and especially this tunnel belonging to the City of London; but they prohibited them from touching the Temple Gardens, which were private property, or taking any land belonging to the Crown, or to the Office of Works; because if they had done so they would have gone through the gardens of the Duke of Buccleuch, and of several other wealthy men who inhabited the houses looking upon the Embankment. Then, what he had to say was this—that the Committee gave the Railway Company power to plunder the public, while they protected private individuals. He should be sorry to see the Gardens of the Inner Temple, which happened to be in front of his own Chambers, spoilt; and he was grateful to the Benchers for having opposed the proposal, and for having opposed it successfully. But he must ask, why were the Benchers of the Inner Temple, and the Duke of Buccleuch and persons who happened to live in Whitehall Gardens, to be spared, while the public gardens and highways were handed over to the Railway Company free and without cost? After the passing of this Act, what took place? the Railway Company made overtures to the Metropolitan Board of Works for the erection of these ventilators. The hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) said that the Metropolitan Board of Works held them at arm's length. Some remarks had been made in regard to the City of London and the Metropolitan Board of Works not having opposed the Bill. The fact was they did oppose it from the beginning in every possible way they could. There were only two ways in which they had not opposed it. They did not hold a public meeting in Hyde Park, and his hon. and gallant Friend the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works did not march a mob down to Trafalgar Square with a drum and fife band. Putting away that class of agitation, they did everything they legitimately could to oppose the Bill. Then the hon. Member for Glasgow said they held the Railway Bill at arm's length. Now, what did they do? The Railway Company said—" We want 15 or 16 of these ventilators; will you allow us to put them up by agreement?" The reply was—" Of course not; we do not want one! "The Railway Company thereupon took the matter before Captain Galton, who cut the number down by probably more than one-half. If he had allowed many more the Railway Company would have simply disfigured the whole of the land, and especially the neighbourhood of the House of Commons. If Captain Galton had only allowed the Company to place one just in front of that House, hon. Members passing in and out of the House would have been able to appreciate the nuisance created. The award of Captain Galton was given in February, and what had the Metropolitan District Railway Company been doing all the time? They knew what would happen when the ventilators were once seen, and Parliament became acquainted with what was going on; therefore, if they did not actually proceed with the construction of the ventilators before the award was given, they took great care to shoot them up before the House met. Immediately after the award was given they were at work night and day in getting the ventilators erected. They were of opinion that if they made it a fait accompli, Parliament would probably in that case not interfere. He hoped, however, that that fact would not prevent the House from giving the Instruction which he proposed to move. The ground of complaint against the District Railway Company was this. They said they had the interest of the travelling public at heart; that so many thousands of persons passed over the line every day; and that they wanted to make the air pure for them. His answer to that was—"You did not want to make it pure as long as it would cost you a penny; but you will do it for nothing if you can." He had absolute proof in support of that assertion. The Railway Company obtained power to take certain private lands belonging to private individuals. Mr. Hubbard, junior, was the owner of a house near Eaton Square, which was occupied for the purposes of the Shoe Black Brigade, and was used in housing a number of boys. That gentleman received notice from the Railway Company, under the Act of 1881, that the House would be required for the purposes of those ventilators. When the notice was received Mr. Hubbard looked about for a now house for the Shoeblack Brigade, and, having obtained one, he vacated the premises the Railway Company required. He had since had the empty house upon his hands. He applied to the General Manager of the Railway Company to know when they were going to take it off his hands, and they requested him to see their solicitor. He went to the solicitor, and ho was then told that the solicitor could give him no information, but he must go to the General Manager, and the Railway Company were now applying for an extension of time for taking the land. Then, again, the tunnel close to the City of London School simply wanted a hole digging into it in order to provide a means of ventilation; but the tunnel would have to be paid for, and consequently the work was not done, and the Company had applied for extra time in regard to it as well. There were other instances in which land applicable to the purposes of ventilation was passed over, because the Company would not spend a farthing on land if they could help it, or if they could get it at the public expense. There was a more remarkable fact still. He had told the House that he would give them a precedent from a Private Bill, and that precedent was a Bill passed at the instigation of this very Company. In the year 1879 the Company got power under the 13th section of their Bill to make ventilators, and they also got power to make a new street, running from Trinity Square and Tower Hill to the King William Statue, at the foot of London Bridge. They were to make a railway under the street, and the Metropolitan Board of Works were to contribute a sum towards the making of the street. The Railway Company met the Metropolitan Board, and asked them—"How much are you going to give for the new street? "The Metropolitan Board said—" We will not give you anything if you are going to have ventilators in the new street, and therefore we will make a condition. We are quite willing to give £500,000—half-a-million of money—for the new street; but we will not have ventilators in it, under the 13th section of the Bill." The Railway Company agreed to take the £500,000. They came to the House of Commons, and last year an Act was passed, the 8th section of which said— Notwithstanding anything in the Act of 1879, or in other Acts, relating to the Railway Company, no opening or shaft for ventilation shall be made in any part of the new street, except with the consent in writing of the Board or of the Commissioners of Sewers. Therefore, the position of the matter was this. In the year 1879, having taken power to make ventilators and blow-holes in the streets, and requiring money from the Metropolitan Board to make a new street, they took the money and brought in a Bill repealing the Act of 1879. Now, if the new street was not to be defaced, why should the old ones be defaced? He did not know what were the artistic tastes of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson); but he would take these ventilators singly. Take, for instance, the one in Victoria Street, near the Station. It was a perfect nuisance. There was another close to the Westminster Palace Hotel in Tothill Street. It was an intolerable nuisance to the coffee-room of the hotel, but not one farthing in the shape of compensation could be claimed for it. Why was this? At the very place it was constructed the Railway Company had land of their own, which they sold to the proprietors of the Aquarium for a very large sum, and then they utilized a public street for their own purposes. The Broad Sanctuary promised to be one of the handsomest sites in London when the fine proportions of Westminster Hall were exposed, and it had just been ornamented by the addition of the statue of the Earl of Beaconsfield. Others might follow, and yet one of these suggestive structures had been put up there to destroy the appearance of the whole. The ventilator on the Embankment was, to his mind, the least nuisance of all, because the roadway was wide, and there was plenty of room; but the ventilator was only 200 feet from a Station, and at this moment the Railway Company were covering over the Station at Westminster Bridge, and were appropriating a larger area for building purposes than was required for the ventilators. The working classes of the Metropolis largely used the Embankment; and he thought the air they got in the Gardens was of more advantage to them than travelling in the tunnel. The Gardens were crowded in the summer time, and he hoped the working classes would be trained to admire them and make use of them. But they could not pass through the Gardens now without perpetually seeing jets of smoke coming out of the ventilators, and if they had a nose their nose could not help being offended. But the worst structure of all was that in Queen Victoria Street. Queen Victoria Street was necessarily a narrow street, because the value of property in that part of London was enormous, and the expense of acquiring it so great that the authorities of the City could not make it wider than it was. Nevertheless, the Company had actually had two ventilators put up—one 40 feet long and 6 feet wide, and another 20 feet long by 12 feet wide. In point of fact, this Railway Company had entirely destroyed the whole street for traffic, and had obtained the use of it absolutely free of cost. His hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow asserted that the Instruction was proposed in a vindictive spirit. He did not think the hon. Member could have read the Instruction, because it said that the ventilators were to be removed on such terms as the Committee might think reasonable. It did not even say that the Railway Company were to reinstate the property themselves. The Metropolitan Board of Works and the City of London would be able to appear before the Committee, and the Committee might say a mistake had been made. He did not think the Railway Company should bear the cost of it; but the Metropolitan Board of Works and the City of London ought to pay for the reinstatement of this property into its original condition. Considering that this street improvement had cost more than £2,000,000, the City of London, he was satisfied, would be glad to pay all that was necessary to protect the property, upon which so much had been spent, from being completely destroyed. He trusted that this Instruction would be passed. It simply sought to give the Committee power to reconsider the matter, not vindictively or in the nature of imposing a fine, but in order to protect the Thames Embankment and this new street from being spoilt. He did not know whether hon. Members had read a speech delivered by the Chairman of the Railway Company (Mr. Forbes) the other day. Mr. Forbes, in that speech, seemed to regard the House of Commons as a piece of clay, and himself as the potter who was to mould it. Mr. Forbes was no respector of persons, and he took a fling at the right hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith), whom he twitted with moving in the matter for the sake of his constituents. Now, he (Mr. Marriott) thought that a Member of Parliament owed as much to his constituents as the Chairman of a Railway Company did to his shareholders. Mr. Forbes had the unparalleled audacity to lecture no less a personage than the Pre- sident of the Board of Trade. He (Mr. Marriott) was not himself a slavish follower of the President of the Board of Trade; but when the President of the Board of Trade applied to the Railway Company the word at which Mr. Forbes took so much objection, he could only say that if the right hon. Gentleman had looked the dictionary through he could not have found a more appropriate one, when he said that the conduct of the Railway Company was "outrageous." The conduct of the Railway Company, represented by Mr. Forbes, was an outrage upon the House of Commons, and in many respects an outrage upon common decency. He begged leave to move the Instruction which stood in his name.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That it "be an Instruction to the Committee to which the said Bill is referred, that, provided the Standing Orders have either been complied with or dispensed with, they have power to insert in the said Bill a Clause making it compulsory upon the Metropolitan District Railway Company to pull down the ventilators, now erected or in course of erection in Tothill Street, Broad Sanctuary, Victoria Street, the Thames Embankment and Gardens, and in Queen Victoria Street, under the award of Captain Galton, and to reinstate the said streets and gardens, upon such terms as may seem reasonable to the Committee."—(Mr. Marriott.)

MR. ANDERSON,

in rising to move the Amendment which stood in his name, said, he did not intend to trouble the House with another speech; but there were one or two points which he felt called upon to allude to. He understood the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James) to state, in the first place, that much as had been said in favour of the ventilators they were of no use as ventilators, and yet in the very next breath the hon. Member stated that the smoke and steam which came from them very much annoyed the people in the Gardens outside. [An hon. Member: Quite true.] But both assertions could not be true, because everything that went up the ventilators must tend to relieve the ventilation of the tunnel, and, therefore, the hon. Member had over-proved his case. It did not require a great engineer to show that there was no other means of ventilation except by creating currents, and artificial currents could not be created except by steam power. The question was, how were they to get that power? And if they were to depend upon artificial currents the result would be to compel the Company to establish air currents driven by steam power, and there must, consequently, be stationary steam-engines and high chimneys vomiting forth smoke, which would be considered a far greater nuisance to the public than anything they were proposed to remedy. The hon. and learned Member who spoke last said they were damaging the roadways and the Gardens above; but he (Mr. Anderson) contended that the Railway below, as a passage for the people, was of infinitely more value than the streets above. Thousands of person a travelled down below for each individual who travelled above. In point of fact, it was in the interest of the public, who used the Railway for travelling purposes, that he proposed this Amendment.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the ventilators on the Embankment having been sanctioned by the House after full investigation of the facts by one of its Committees, and in order to promote the health and comfort of the millions who are travelling by the Underground Railway, the House declines, on mere ex parte statements, to upset the previous decision by an Instruction that would appear vindictive, as given on a Bill not relating to the subject,"— (Mr. Anderson,)

—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, that as this was a matter in which he took some interest, he hoped the House would permit him to say a few words in order to explain why it was he gave his support to the Instruction moved by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott). It was quite true that two years ago the Railway Company obtained the power now complained of—with the consent of the public in a certain sense—to make these ventilators. It might, therefore, be said that the public had no right to complain; but he ventured to say that the public had not been aware of what was taking place. He himself occupied a position of some importance in relation to public improvements; but he was totally unaware of what was being done. He did not know of the decision of the Com- mittee until it was given, because neither the Metropolitan Board of Works, nor the City of London, had applied to him for assistance. He very much regretted that the Metropolitan Board did not think it right to appeal to the House against the decision come to by the Committee. He had been under the impression that as the matter had been referred to an arbitrator, no arbitrator would be found who would exercise his discretion so unwisely as to permit the construction of these ventilators; and he believed if the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) had appealed to the feeling of the House it would have been in his favour; and, so far as he (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) was personally concerned, he should certainly have endeavoured to use all the official influence he possessed for the purpose of supporting his hon. and gallant Friend on such an occasion, in inducing the House to undo the mistake which had been committed. It was not until the autumn of last year that he heard, for the first time, of what was intended. The Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works then applied to him for assistance; and he thought it his duty to go before the arbitrator and explain, in the strongest manner he could, the injury which he felt would be done to the public interest by the erection of ventilators. He asked the House to consider the difference between the relations of the Metropolitan Board of Works in regard to public Gardens—such as those upon the Embankment—and the relation of the First Commissioner of Works towards the Royal Parks. If such a thing had been proposed in reference to the Royal Parks, he, as First Commissioner of Works in respect of Crown property, would have had an absolute veto in the interests of the public against the encroachment of a Railway Company or any other person who endeavoured to invade the Royal Parks. No interest or property of the Crown in the Royal Parks could be taken away, even by an Act of Parliament, without the consent of the Crown, and no Committee of the House could overrule the Crown in this matter. As Representative of the Crown, therefore, his veto was absolute and conclusive. Without such a veto, the First Commissioner of Works would not be able to preserve the Royal Parks from the continual attempts which were made to invade the rights of the Crown. The Gardens upon the Thames Embankment were quite as important as the Royal Parks; but the Metropolitan Board of Works had no equivalent power of veto over the Embankment. There were nearly 4,000,000 of inhabitants in London; but if they came before a Select Committee their wishes were liable to be overruled by a body consisting of four Members of the House of Commons, who would probably have no special knowledge of the subject. Now, he ventured to say that that was not as it ought to be, and that far greater deference ought to be paid by Committees of the House to the opinions of those who represented the ratepayers of the Metropolis; and for this reason he thought that a grave mistake was made in 1881. He entirely concurred in all that had been said by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott), that great injury had been done by the erection of those ventilators to the Thames Embankment Gardens, to Parliament Square, Queen Victoria Street, and other places; and he believed it would be wise to refer the matter again to another Committee of the House. He sincerely hoped that a new Committee would overrule the decision come to by the Committee of 1881. In taking this course, no hardship was contemplated to be done to the Railway Company. After all, the Railway Company only did what was within their right; and if a mistake had been made, the Committee would take it into their consideration, and provide that due and ample compensation should be given to the Railway Company in respect to any expense to which they might be put by the action of Parliament. At the same time, he believed that a grave mistake had been made, and he ventured to hope that it was not too late to rectify it.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said, there was one point in the speech which had just been delivered which was open to comment—namely, that the case, as made out by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Commissioner of Works, contained no argument to justify the conclusion arrived at. He wished to point out the extraordinary position which the First Commissioner of Works appeared to occupy. The right hon. Gentleman told them that although, in his official capacity, he had taken the greatest interest in the Embankment, that interest was not sufficient to enable him to know what was being done in the House of Commons. Surely in his official capacity the right hon. Gentleman ought to have made himself informed as to the proceedings of the Select Committee, and if he objected to the decision they arrived at, he ought to have opposed it. The right hon. Gentleman said that if the Metropolitan Board of Works had resisted the decision of the Committee he would have supported them. But why should not the right hon. Gentleman have taken the initiative, especially when he admitted that he was officially connected with the matter?

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, ho had not stated that he was officially concerned in the matter?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

asked if he was to understand that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was made purely in a private capacity? If so, the whole speech was altogether inappropriate. What could the right hon. Gentleman mean about having a veto in regard to the public Parks? Turning from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to the speech of the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. Marriott), the hon. and learned Member began by saying that he had considerable respect for the Committee which arrived at the decision he wished to overthrow. He was glad his hon. and learned Friend had respect for the Committee, because they never could have guessed it from his speech. His hon. and learned Friend was not content with differing from the decision of the Committee, but he actually brought an accusation against it of a kind that had never been brought against a Private Bill Committee of the House. He deliberately accused the Committee which sat on this matter of having been afraid to deal with the property of a wealthy Corporation and of wealthy individuals, and of having turned their attention to the property of the public only. His hon. and learned Friend said that the Committee were afraid to touch the Temple Gardens, or the property of the Duke of Buccleuch, and therefore they contented themselves with appropriating the public property.

MR. MARRIOTT

I did not say it in that way. I said, as a matter of fact, they did not.

MR. A. J.BALFOUR

said, he thought the criticisms he had made were amply justified by the facts of the case. Perhaps the House would now allow him to explain the history of this Bill. The Temple Gardens were not touched simply for this reason. The Metropolitan District Railway Company had promised, when their line was originally made, to respect the property of the Benchers of the Temple, and it was on that condition that the Benchers of the Temple withdrew their resistance to the original Bill of the Company. He was speaking from recollection, but he thought he was right. As to the Duke of Beccleuch, the question of interfering with his property never came before the Committee at all. There was no proposal to do it; and his hon. and learned Friend knew enough of the conduct of Private Bill Business to be aware that it was not for the Committee to suggest that the private property of A or B should be taken, when no such suggestion was made by the parties who appeared before them. He would pass now to the general merits of the question, upon which he intended to be very brief. He knew no spectacle which, on the whole, was less edifying than that of the British public in one of its artistic moods. They would allow the most monstrous things to be done by their Representatives and by private individuals, and never say a word. But somebody read an article in a newspaper, an agitation immediately sprang up, and the inhabitants of the Metropolis suddenly discovered that they were more sensitive in regard to the beauties of Art than any other people in the Kingdom; and, on behalf of the British public, it was felt to be the duty of such 13odies as the City of London and the Metropolitan Board of Works to take up a prominent position in such matters. It certainly amused him to hear the Representatives of the City say that their delicate susceptibilities were offended by these ventilators, when he recollected that they had only recently pulled down that magnificent work of Sir Christopher Wren at Temple Bar, which, at this moment, was put by in some back-yard, and had stuck up in its place a most extraordinary abomination. Nor did he think that the Metropolitan, Board of Works were much better. He recollected perfectly well that it was only by a threat of determined resistance on the part of that House, that the Metropolitan Board of Works, with his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Truro (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) at their head, did not destroy the Portico of that magnificent Church of Saint Mar-tin-in-the-Fields, at Trafalgar Square. When he looked at those astonishing houses of portentious vulgarity which they had allowed to be constructed on their land at Northumberland Avenue and elsewhere, he really was amazed at the face with which the Metropolitan Board came down to the House and expressed their horror of the unoffending brick erections which had been placed upon the Embankment for the ventilation of the Railway Tunnel. Ho would tell his hon. and learned Friend what it was that destroyed the beauty of the Thames Embankment, and, he was afraid, would ever destroy it. The Embankment was for ever destroyed beyond redemption by that enormous erection, the Charing Cross Railway Station, and the hideous Girder Bridge which connected it with the other side of the river. Had his hon. and learned Friend ever made the least effort to remedy that great blot as regarded the action of Parliament in that matter? Ho (Mr. Balfour) was influenced by no love of the Railway; but he confessed to having a certain aversion towards these two powerful Corporations—the Metropolitan Board of Works and the City of London. The interests, however, for which he pleaded at that moment were not the interests of the Railway, but the interests of the millions who travelled by it. One hon. Member in one sentence asserted that these ventilators did no good, and in the next he stated that the fumes which were emitted from it were most offensive to the people who used the Gardens upon the Embankment. He failed to see how the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James) could reconcile these two statements. Certainly what came out, if there had been no ventilators, must have remained in. All the sulphurous fumes now emitted by the engines on that Railway must come out some time or other. They did not congeal in the tunnel, but they came out and polluted the air some time or other. The only difference was, whether they were to be be let out before they suffocated the 30,000,000 of people who used the Railway? Had hon. Members reflected what it was to say that 30,000,000 people travelled annually by a Railway? It meant, roughly speaking, that nearly 100,000 persons a-day travelled by it; that more than twice as many individuals travelled by that Railway per day as all the people, man, woman, and child, of the borough of Northampton, in whose interests they were so anxious to legislate The House was asked to legislate now for the people who drove about the Embankment in their carriages, and the roughs who lounged about it at night. He did not moan to say that they had not got interests which ought to be protected; but he did say that the interests of the public, those interests, which were increasing every day as the suburbs increased, and as the means of connection between London and the outlying districts were getting more and more gorged, required their first care and consideration. It was, therefore, in the interests of the public at large that he hoped the House would refuse this Instruction to the Committee, which was not only infringing the well-established practice of Parliament, but doing something that would materially injure the very large and important body of people living in the Metropolis. He therefore hoped that the House would agree to the Amendment.

MR. FIRTH

said, the real difficulty he had in arriving at a conclusion upon this question was that which had been alluded to by the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and which had been commented upon also by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott), as to the impropriety of interfering with the authority of their Select Committees or of reversing their action. He might have some difficulty in supporting the Instruction if the action of the new Committee were likely to entail additional cost upon the Railway Company; but he understood, from the observations of his right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works, that that difficulty would not exist. If it did not exist, then as to the merits of the case he had no manner of doubt whatever. It was true that he occupied the position of one of those for whom so much sympathy had been expressed. He was one of the 30,000,000 who, day by day, travelled by this Railway; and he had certainly tried, during the last few weeks, with some anxiety to ascertain the effect their ventilators was producing, and whether the air was now much purer or better. But he confessed that he had not noticed very much change. He did not think that the air was very much purer; and, therefore, as a matter of fact, these ventilators, as they were called, had not been a success, and the arguments which were based on the interests of the millions who travelled underneath might be dismissed from the consideration of the House, because the millions who travelled underneath were not of opinion that the ventilators were doing much good. As to the construction of the ventilators, a great deal had been said before the Committee; but he believed that the Railway Company adopted them, because they were cheapest, in preference to other methods of ventilation which would have rendered the air perfectly pure. In the Mont Cenis Tunnel the air was kept perfectly pure, and air-engines had proved an entire success in the State of New York, and in other parts of the world. Any person who was acquainted with the first elements of the science of ventilation knew that an engineer could easily have constructed channels from the tunnel itself, and carried them up alongside the houses by means of air currents, by means of which a draught would have been produced which did not now exist. Again, and beyond all that, anyone familiar with the ventilation of collieries must know that there were many methods by which, if the Railway Company had chosen to incur the expense, and to show that they had the interests and health of the public at heart, they might have provided ventilation and kept the tunnels perfectly clear. The Railway Company were not entitled, upon any ground, to the sympathy of the House of Commons, and certainly not in the matter of these ventilators. When leave was obtained to construct this Railway, and £200,000 was paid in respect of it, what was that money paid for? It was paid for the purpose of constructing a Railway in accordance with certain plans deposited with the Metropolitan Board of Works. In those days the Railway Company were perfectly willing to place themselves, and they did so, at the feet of the Metropolitan Board as suppliants for the purpose of obtaining their consent to the construction of the Railway. If they had then suggested that they intended to construct these ventilators they knew perfectly well that they would never have obtained the consent of the Metropolitan Board. Therefore, no suggestion of the kind was then made. In regard to the question of ventilation itself, the Company had at that time the example of other Railways to guide them. The Metropolitan Railway had already been constructed, and the foulness of the atmosphere upon that line was notorious. The Metropolitan District Company, therefore, ought to have taken precautions to secure that proper ventilation upon their system was provided. He had only one other point, and it related to the Committee. It appeared that two of the so-called representative City authorities—namely, the City of London and the Metropolitan Board of Works, with all the panoply of counsel, did appear before the Committee. How it was that in a matter so simple as this the Committee came to the conclusion they did he was not prepared to say. He certainly should not join in any reflection upon them; but he thought there could not be a more remarkable argument in favour of the proposition which he hoped might be made some time for the simplification of the government of London than the fact that four hon. Gentlemen, the Members for South Derbyshire (Mr. Evans), Hertford (Mr. A. J. Balfour), West Suffolk (Mr. Biddell), and one of the Members for Cornwall, had decided upon the question whether the open spaces in London should or should not be interfered with. He should have thought it was desirable that such a matter should have been decided by the House, and perhaps much blame rested upon the Metropolitan Members for not reading carefully the clauses of every Metropolitan Bill that might be introduced in Parliament. Speaking as one of the 30,000,000 who travelled upon this Railway every day, he had come to the conclusion that the ventilators, on their own merits, were not a success; and he trusted the House would support the proposition of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott).

Mr. W. H. SMITH

wished to say a few words upon the question, and to express a hope that the House would consent to give the Instruction moved for by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott). His hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. A. J. Balfour), who had made a most interesting and amusing speech, as ho always did when he addressed the House, had disappointed him. There was no desire on the part of those who objected to these ventilators to overrule the determination of the Committee of 1881. All they asked, on behalf of the Metropolis, was that power should be given to the new Committee appointed to consider the present Bill to rehear and retry the case. Hon. Members who hesitated to vote for this Instruction should realize what it was. It was an Instruction to the Committee that they should have power to consider the case that would be put before them by the Representatives of the Metropolis on the one hand, with full power to the Railway Company to make their case good on the other hand. There could be no reflection upon the Committee of 1881 in the Metropolis desiring a rehearing of the case at its own cost. Let it be understood that the Metropolis did not ask or suggest that the Railway Company should be put to the cost of reinstating the Gardens or roadways in their former position, or that they should suffer loss; but simply that the case should be retried, so that if it was found by the Committee before whom the whole case was to be brought that wrong had been done and that a mistake had been made, the only result would be that the costs which the Railway Company had incurred would be repaid to them, and the position of affairs would be precisely what it was before these structures were put up. He did not think it was unfair or unreasonable that the interests of the many thousand persons who used the Embankment, and who regarded it, as they regarded the Royal Parks, in the light of a breathing place, and as a necessity for the inhabitants of this great Metropolis—he did not think it was unreasonable that the interests of those people should be duly regarded by the House of Commons and the Committee, and that the whole matter should be fairly dealt with. He, for one, should regret very much if, from any feeling of sensibility or annoyance, the House should reverse the decision already arrived at improperly; but he thought the matter might be reconsidered and retried with fairness to all parties. He had said that he would not occupy the attention of the House at any length, and ho would, therefore, not go into a question which had been raised as to why the Railway Company could not have ventilated the line in any other way; but ho could not help remarking that some inconvenience had arisen from the decision at which the Committee had arrived. The Committee did not sanction these particular works, but said there should be ventilation, and if the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Railway Company could have arrived at an agreement, well and good; but, if not, then they left it to some third person to decide what the ventilation should be. He thought that a most inconvenient course, and probably it was one which had brought about the present agitation. If the Committee had sanctioned deliberate plans, which he thought they might have done, the House would then have understood exactly where they were, and there probably would not have been an appeal to the House to reconsider the matter. He hoped the House would consent to the Instruction which had been moved by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott).

MR. J. G. HUBBARD

said, the House was not called upon to decide between the merits of the contending parties upon this question. They were not asked to take part either with the Metropolitan District Railway Company or the Metropolitan Board of Works or the First Commissioner of Works, but to consider simply the best way of removing the enormous nuisance which had grown up so swiftly and stealthily. All they had to do now was to consider the best means of getting rid of it, because it was perfectly impossible to leave the matter as it stood. Taking the direct roadway between that House and the City, it was no exaggeration to say that the value of the space in Queen Victoria Street was equal to what it would be if paved with gold, and yet that street had been taken up, and a large amount of space had been appropriated by the Railway Company for the erection of these horrible abominations. It was at all times inconvenient to pass through that narrow street, down which there was scarcely room for more than one carriage to pass. It was hardly possible to pass through Queen Victoria Street without finding an obstruction where the ventilators were so placed as to leave scarcely room for two carriages. Carriages habitually did not run close to the side of the street; and now that the width of the street was reduced by the Railway Company's inclosures or chimney, it was impossible for one carriage to pass another in the same direction. Then in regard to the inclosures on the Embankment, he could conceive nothing more idiotic than the way in which these ventilators had been flanked with massive projections of granite which effectively and gratuitously took away something like two feet from the already diminished width of the street. He was of opinion that, at whatever cost, and upon whatever terms they could arrange, it was necessary that these abominations should be removed.

MR. WIGGIN

said, he rose, not on behalf of the Railway Company, in whom he had not the slightest interest, but to say a word on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of people who travelled daily on this Railway. He would appeal to hon. Members in that House who were in the habit of travelling by the line, and would ask them if the atmosphere they were compelled to breathe was one which conduced to their health or comfort, seeing that they were compelled to breathe an atmosphere charged with carbonic acid gas and sulphurous fumes? He thought the House ought to do all they could to enable the Railway Company to clear the tunnel of these obnoxious and unhealthy gases. Whatever decision the House might arrive at, he hoped they would not reduce the number of ventilators, which he should prefer to see largely increased. He had nothing to say against the Company paying for them; but it was on behalf of the travellers who used the line that he asked the House not to send this question back again to a Committee. He thought they ought to stand by the decision of a Committee of the House who had done their duty well and faithfully. It would be unfair to treat any Committee in the way in which it was proposed to treat this Committee. He trusted that the House would support the Amendment which had been moved by his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson).

MR. BIDDELL

said, he had been a Member of the original Committee, and he wished to say a word in their defence. He altogether disagreed with many of the remarks which had been made. He did not think that this was a question which would best be considered by Metropolitan Members, who might be influenced by the separate and distinct interests of their constituents. Hon. Members who lived at a distance were quite as capable of judging of the merits of a Private Bill. The Committee had before them the Representatives of the City, and they heard them most patiently, and he must say the City authorities were entirely exonerated for not having done all they could to advance the supposed interests of the ratepayers; but the Committee found that there was a great want of ventilation upon the Railway, and that the Railway Company were bound to provide it. But they were not responsible, as the right hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith) stated, for the position of the ventilators. All they had considered was the comfort of the many, and not that of the few; and, in coming to the conclusion they did, they were actuated by the feeling that what might be a private injury might be for the public advantage. He did not think the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott) could tell him of a single railway that was ever made that did not inflict some injury for which no one was entitled to compensation. If these ventilators had been placed on public ground, rather than on private ground, it was Captain Galton who decided the matter. He would say, further, that the injury to the Embankment Gardens had been immensely magnified. He went over them very frequently from Charing Cross; and since the question had been agitated he had purposely watched the action of the ventilators, and he was able to say that they were by no means as injurious as they had been represented. The hon. and learned Member for Brighton said the Metropolitan Board of Works had done all they could to stop the construction of the ventilators, except by calling a meeting in the public Parks; but if they had called a meeting in the public Parks the people who attended it would have been with the Railway Company, because it was for their advantage that the ventilators were erected. As to the argument of the hon Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James), that the ventilators did no good, how was it that so much vapour, as represented, came from them? He thought the House were not taking a dignified course in practically asking the Company to remove these ventilators, or the House would not grant them powers in a totally unconnected matter. If the ventilators were wrong, let there be some separate action on the part of Parliament in regard to them. It was not denied that this Railway was properly managed in other respects, unconnected with the question of ventilation. If there was to be an Instruction given to the Committee, the proper Instruction would be that they should inquire into the operation of the ventilation, and report upon it. That would be all very well; but the hon. and learned Member for Brighton asked that the Committee should have power to order their removal, and not to inquire fairly and impartially into their operation, and report to the House. He trusted that hon. Members would take an opportunity of looking at the ventilators for themselves, and would not accept, without investigation, the exaggerated complaints they had heard. He had himself stood by them, and had seen train after train pass by with hardly any smoke or vapour appearing from it. He desired that every Member should judge for himself, and he trusted that they would take an opportunity of doing so before anything was done. He certainly thought if that was done they would come to the same conclusion he had, that if there was anything disagreeable about the ventilators, as he did not deny there was at times, it was more than counter-balanced by the immense advantage they were to the people who used the Railway. He hoped the hon. and learned Member for Brighton would modify the Amendment to this effect—"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to investigate and report to the House upon the action of the ventilators." That would be a very different thing from empowering the Committee to order their removal.

MR. STORY-MASKELYNE

said, he ventured, even at that late hour, and even when the House was probably weary of the discussion, to ask for its attention for one moment. There had been a complaint against one or two of the speakers that, on the one hand, they had declared that the ventilators were of no use; while, on the other band, they contended that the foul air emitted from them spoilt the atmosphere of the Embankment Gardens. Now, the fact was that the ventilators did emit those horrible fumes, and spoil the atmosphere in the Gardens; and, at the same time, he would observe that experience had proved the ventilators themselves to be absolutely useless, and that they did not ventilate the Railway. He was speaking in the presence of engineers, and he nevertheless ventured to say that the very idea of ventilating this Railway in the manner now adopted was absurd. The only way in which to ventilate the Railway was by the erection of long shafts to draw away the foul air and bring in the fresh air necessary to replace it. That was the only scientific principle The proper way of doing this was not merely to open a hole in the top of the tunnel, and then to expect that the foul air would go out; but to erect a shaft somewhat conveniently situated for the purpose, and to make an opening into the tunnel half-way between two Stations, and by means of a tube to connect this ventilator in the Railway with that shaft, and then to draw out the foul air by means of agencies similar to those employed in mines. Fresh air would then flow in at the terminal openings and the foul gases be delivered into the upper air above the shaft. That would have been a complete solution of the difficulty, and the House would not have been placed in what he was bound to say was the somewhat undignified position it occupied at the present moment. ["Divide!"] It was very rarely he addressed the House, and he hoped he might be allowed to say a few words without interruption. There was only one other point he wished to comment upon. When the Underground Railway was first constructed, they were told that the Railway Company intended to introduce a new principle in locomotives, and that there would be locomotives which would consume their own smoke, and condense their own steam, without pouring out into the air carbonic and sulphurous acid gases, and even the more deleterious carbonic oxide. They promised to relieve the travelling public from the unpleasantness they would otherwise suffer in consequence of inhaling these obnoxious gases. But what had been the result? For some time the Metropolitan Railway was kept comparatively clear of these foul gases, with hardly any extraneous means of ventilation being provided. The Metropolitan Line was originally much less disagreeable to passengers than it was now with all its ventilators. The reason was obvious. The Railway Company would no longer take the trouble or incur the cost of providing engines that would do the work without being a nuisance; and the more holes of this kind the Legislature allowed them to make, the more would they ask to convert their underground tunnels into open cuttings, and the worse would be the result, and the fouler the air above them. He thought they ought to be compelled to return to their original condition, which was the condition upon which Parliament gave permission for the construction of the Railway. They might now do this by the aid of other agencies than the steam locomotive; such as by the use of compound air or of electricity. The arguments which had been brought forward were sufficiently strong to induce him to vote, to compel the Railway Company, if it be possible, to go back to their original condition. He thought the supporters of the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marriott) could show that they had common sense on their side, and that the Instruction itself ought to meet with the full approval of the House.

SIR GEORGE ELLIOT

said, he did not like to remain silent upon a subject on which ho had a right to speak. He thought the means provided by the Railway Company for ventilating this tunnel and Railway were not adequate. All that was necessary was a simple operation—namely, the erection of long chimneys in spots little frequented by the public. The opening of ventilators of this kind, to disperse the filthy and foul atmosphere generated by the locomotives employed in working the traffic of the tunnel, was altogether insufficient for the purpose; and he remembered very well pointing that out to the engineer of the Company, who told him what he was going to do. He (Sir George Elliot) stated at the time that the ventilators would be a failure; and that instead of having these very low chimneys, or blow-holes, they ought to take off a piece of land, laterally from the Railway and erect a high chimney in a place where it would not be an eyesore. There would then be a ventilating power resulting from the differences of level between the Railway and the tops of the chimneys or tubes, as in the case of the shot-towers on the other side of the River. Assistance might also be procured from the action of furnaces.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes 200; Noes 110: Majority 90.—(Div. List, No. 70.)

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee to which the said Bill is referred, that, provided the Standing Orders have either been complied with or dispensed with, they have power to insert in the said Bill a Clause making it compulsory upon the Metropolitan District Railway Company to pull down the ventilators now erected or in course of erection in Tothill Street, Broad Sanctuary, Victoria Street, the Thames Embankment and Gardens, and in Queen Victoria Street, under the award of Captain Galton, and to reinstate the said streets and gardens, upon such terms as may seem reasonable to the Committee. Ordered, That leave be given to the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Commissioners of Sewers of the City of London to appear, by their Counsel, Agents, and Witnesses, before the Committee on the Bill in support of any Petition which may be presented by them respectively on the subject, notwithstanding that such Petition has boon presented after the period limited by the Standing Orders for the presentation of Petitions against Private Bills.

LORD ALGERNON PERCY

asked whether ho would be in Order in now making a Motion which stood in his name upon the same subject?

MR. SPEAKER

said, that if the noble Lord desired to address the House on the matter, he would be in Order in doing so.

LORD ALGERNON PERCY

then rose to move— That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to inquire what powers, if any, the Metropolitan District Railway Company now possess enabling them to cover in or build over the open cuttings on their Railways; and, if the Company has such powers, that the Committee have power, upon the Standing Orders being complied with or dispensed with, to amend or repeal the section or sections of the Act or Acts giving such powers with such provisos and upon such terms as may seem reasonable to the Committee. The noble Lord said, that after the lengthened debate which had already taken place, he would not think of de- taining the House at any length; but he felt it his duty to move this Instruction, because it dealt with another portion of the question of this Railway different from that which had been referred to in the previous debate. In the case tried before Mr. Justice Fry, the Railway claimed to have the power to which his Instruction applied. He had no desire to discuss the legal powers of the Company at the present moment, because if the power was possessed by the Railway Company, it could not be injured by an inquiry being made into it; and if it wore not possessed, it would probably be unnecessary to legislate upon the subject. But, assuming that the Railway Company had the power, it was necessary that it should be exorcised under some proper control, because the only plea the Company could put forward for taking the public property, for the purpose of ventilating their line, was that they could not ventilate it by any other means, in consequence of its being so much in tunnel; and yet at the moment they wore appropriating the public property, they wore covering over open spaces of their own property within 200 yards of the ventilator on the Embankment, and close to that hideous erection, the ventilator in Parliament Square. It was said that these matters had nothing to do with the present Bill. That appeared to be a reason why a special Instruction should be given to the Committee, and it was not unreasonable to ask Parliament to consider under what conditions the fresh powers asked for by the Company should be granted to them. He was sure that he was only expressing the opinion of a very large number of the inhabitants of the Metropolis when he said that at the present moment, and under the present condition of affairs, the interests of the public were being sacrificed to the interests of the shareholders of the Railway Company. He begged to move the Motion which stood in his name.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to inquire what powers, i£ any, the Metropolitan District Railway Company now possess enabling them to cover in or build over the open cuttings on their Railways; and, if the Company has such powers, that the Committee have power, upon the Standing Orders being complied with or dispensed with, to amend or repeal the section or sections of the Act or Acts giving such powers with such pro- visos and upon such terms as may seem reasonable to the Committee. Ordered, That leave be given to the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Commissioners of Sewers of the City of London to appear, by their Counsel, Agents, and Witnesses, before the Committee on the Bill in support of any Petition which may be presented by them respectively on the subject, notwithstanding that such Petition has been presented after the period limited by the Standing Orders for the presentation of Petitions against Private Bills. — (Lord Algernon Percy.)