HC Deb 02 April 1883 vol 277 cc1172-5
THE O'DONOGHUE

In reference to the Question of which I gave Notice on Friday, as I was prevented by the "Count out" from placing it on the Paper, and as I have made some additions to it, I may be allowed to read it in the form in which it now stands. It is to ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, Whether his attention has been called to the following remarks of the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), as published in The Standard of the 24th ultimo on the authority of its Paris Correspondent:— My friends and I, as you are aware" (the hon. Member was speaking to the Editor of The Clairon)," had been thrown into prison; risings had taken place in Ireland; the Government saw they were powerless to repress the disturbances. They came to us and asked us to intervene; they sot us free. We said to them, You must take such and such measures—the good provisions of the Act of 1881 must not be neutralized by the tribunals intrusted with their application;' we were, so to say, the arbiters of the situation; whether this is a correct version of the Kilmainham transaction; whether it does not directly conflict with that given at the time by leading Members of the Government in both Houses, and, notably, with that given by Lord Carling- ford, who, in the House of Lords, on June 5, 1882, used these words— An intimation was first made by Mr. Parnell through a friend, and afterwards a letter was written by him, which he himself read in the House of Commons. The fact was that the communications from Kilmainham came absolutely uninvited—proffered voluntarily to the Government, and, therefore, suddenly?

MR. O'KELLY

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that Question, perhaps I may be permitted to offer some explanation of the paragraph. ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member has a Question to put arising out of the Question now raised, he will be in Order, but not otherwise.

MR. O'KELLY

Certainly I have. The quotation which the hon. Member for Tralee has made docs not belong to the hon. Member for the City of Cork. There were two conversations in The Clairon office. The interview which was published was a composite interview. ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is not putting a Question at all, but is raising matter of debate.

MR. O'KELLY

Sir, I am endeavouring to explain—["Order!"]—I am making an explanation in reference to a Question, if I may be permitted to proceed. It is a personal explanation. I will make it clear to you that the matter is pertinent to the Question. There were two conversations in the office of The Clairon. The hon. Member for the City of Cork did not make the statement.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is making a certain assertion. A Question has been put by the hon. Member for Tralee to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government. The hon. Member may ask any Questions he thinks proper arising out of that Question; but he cannot enter into debate.

MR. GLADSTONE

I have to thank my hon. Friend for having called my attention, by a private communication, to this report in The Standard, from, I believe, its Paris Correspondent, which had escaped my attention. From the nature of it, I cannot but feel glad that my hon. Friend has now called my attention to it. It is—as I had supposed before hearing the interlocutory statement of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. O'Kelly), and, it must be necessarily— an unauthorized and inaccurate report. Of the degrees of that, I, of course, know nothing. I take the report as it is; and, taking it as it is, and not attempting to make the hon. Member for the City of Cork responsible for it, either in whole or in part—it is hardly for me to be responsible for it—I have not the least hesitation in answering my hon. Friend to the effect that, setting apart matters of opinion, as far as it refers to matters of fact, and as far as it bears upon and concerns the Government, it is wholly and absolutely without foundation; and that the statement of my noble Friend (Lord Carlingford), which he has quoted, was a perfectly accurate statement.

Subsequently,

MR. PARNELL

With reference to the reply of the Prime Minister to the Question of the hon. Member for Tralee, which appeared to suggest that my hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon had imputed some inaccuracy to the editors of The Clairon in reporting the conversation which is contained in that journal, I wish to say what my hon. Friend desired to say—and what I wish he might have been permitted to say—that the interview in question was reported with fairly sufficient accuracy, but that it was an interview arising out of two conversations, the one held with my hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon, and the other with myself. My hon. Friend informs me that the passage in question was given by him pretty much as it was reported by the editor of The Clairon, with whom he held the interview. With regard to the statement of Lord Carlingford referred to by the Prime Minister, and by the hon. Member for Tralee, I cannot hold myself bound in any way to admit the accuracy of that statement. I deny, Mr. Speaker, that I took the initiative in communicating with the Government on the occasion in question; and if Lord Carlingford made such a statement—I do not know whether he did or not—it was decidedly an inaccurate one.

MR. GLADSTONE

After what has been said, perhaps I may be permitted to say one word. I would ask the attention of the House to the exact words used by my noble Friend. The words imputed by the hon. Member for Tralee to Lord Carlingford are— An intimation was first made by Mr. Parnell through a friend, and afterwards a letter was written by him, which he himself read in the House of Commons. The exception taken by the hon. Member for the City of Cork is, I presume, to the words— An intimation was first made by Mr. Parnell through a friend.

MR. PARNELL

Hear, hear!

MR. GLADSTONE

Yes, Sir; but we know nothing of the communications which passed between Mr. Parnell and that friend. My meaning was that Lord Carlingford's statement was a perfectly accurate statement of the case, as it was represented through the friend to whom reference was made.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

With reference to the statement which has been made by the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and the further statement which we have just heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, I would respectfully ask whether he is still disposed to adhere to his refusal to grant a Committee of Inquiry into the transactions connected with the release of the Irish Members from Kilmainham?

MR. GLADSTONE

I see nothing in what has taken place to-day that ought in any degree to alter the intention of the Government.

THE O'DONOGHUE

I copied Lord Carlingford's words from Hansard, and I may say, further, that I have no doubt of their entire accuracy.