HC Deb 13 November 1882 vol 274 cc1312-4
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he can name a day for discussing the Resolution, of which notice has been given by the Right honourable Member for King's Lynn, That this House regrets that, after the unconditional surrender of Arabi Pasha to British authority, he was delivered over to be dealt with by Egyptian Tribunals?

MR. GLADSTONE

This is a subject which it has been the duty of Her Majesty's Government to consider with much care, not only with respect to the Government and the House, but much more especially with reference to the interests of the chief person arraigned in Egypt—namely, the interests of Arabi Pasha. Now, if this question were discussed in the House, it would be absolutely necessary for Her Majesty's Government, in order to explain the grounds of their conduct, to consider all the circumstances, whether actual or alleged, belonging to the conduct of Arabi, which led to his arrest. We should necessarily have to refer to alleged acts, amounting to crimes—of which he may or may not be guilty—and we feel certain that, however the case might be stated on the one side or the other, we should necessarily be anticipating the proceedings of the trial. It appears to us to be beyond all doubt, that if we were called upon to state even the possi- bility of his guilt in connection with the imputation of certain crimes of which he may be entirely innocent, we should be most seriously affecting his position in the coming trial. The expression of our views would give rise to statements which might unfairly prejudice him. There is a consideration more important still than the effect which speeches and arguments of Her Majesty's Government in explanation of their own conduct might produce, and that is, the effect that might be produced by a vote of the House; because I need hardly point out how much greater weight would follow a vote of the House, which, if it went in one direction, might be regarded as condemnatory of the conduct of Arabi Pasha. I am not prepared, therefore, while the judicial proceedings are pending, to name a day for the discussion of this Motion. Were the judicial proceedings in Egypt to be in any way brought to a close, this would be a matter as open to the House as any other portion of the Egyptian Question. What I have now said is in no way to be understood as a departure from what I have already said in regard to our general conduct of affairs in Egypt. Should there be any desire to pronounce a censure on that conduct, it will be our duty to find the earliest day in our power for the purpose of discussing that subject.

MR. BOURKE

I should like to ask one Question arising out of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman—Whether all the difficulties he has just mentioned as standing in the way of finding a particular day for this discussion do not arise from the fact that Arabi Pasha was surrendered to the Egyptian Government, and that they would not have arisen if he had not been surrendered?

MR. GLADSTONE

Of course, my answer is, that if the same difficulties had not arisen—which they might have done—other difficulties would have arisen of a much more serious nature.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will give the House an assurance that on the conclusion of the trial of Arabi Pasha, and before any step has been taken to carry out any sentence consequent upon the trial, he will give the House an opportunity of discussing the question?

MR. GLADSTONE

I think the hon. and learned Member can hardly suppose that I will give an assurance that the House will be made so far party to the procedure—whatever sentence is pronounced, whether just or unjust, what ever facts are proved or not proved— before anything is done the House should be called upon to give its judgment on the subject. One of the great objects and purposes of the House is that a substantial Government shall exist in Egypt, with real authority and real dignity. It is impossible that that result can be attained if either the British Government or the British Parliament is to endeavour to exercise that authority, or take it out of the hands of the Egyptian Government. I say this without prejudice to the answer which I have presently to give.

MR. GIBSON

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman when he expects the trial will begin, and when he expects the trial will actually be brought to a close?

MR. GLADSTONE

Considering the Profession to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman belongs, and the total impossibility of knowing in this country when any legal business will begin or conclude, I think it is sanguine on the part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to ask me that Question. All lean say is that, in the interests of all concerned, it will be very advantageous to all parties that those proceedings should be as expeditious as is consistent with the substantial ends of justice.

MR. ONSLOW

asked whether the date of the trial was to be fixed by Her Majesty's Government, or by the Egyptian Government?

MR. GLADSTONE

The date of the trial will be fixed by the local authorities, and not by Her Majesty's Government.

MR. MOLLOY

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If, in the event of a verdict to that effect, can Arabi Pasha be executed without the concurrence of Her Majesty's Government?

MR. GLADSTONE

I do not think it would be expedient that I should enter into the abstract question as to the power or authority of the Khedive's Government to execute Arabi; but I have no hesitation in saying that I entertain no doubt that Arabi will not be put to death without the assent of Her Majesty's Government.