HC Deb 11 November 1882 vol 274 cc1646-8

Order read, for resuming Further Consideration of the New Rules of Procedure.

MR. GLADSTONE

moved the 6th Resolution, as follows:— That, in Committee on a Bill, the Preamble do stand postponed until after the consideration of the Clauses, without Question put. The right hon. Gentleman said this Resolution, and the one which followed, involved matters of smaller moment than those which had already been under consideration. So far as his experience went it was the rarest instance, when there was a discussion on the postponement of the Preamble, that it was of an obstructive nature. Preambles in former times did contain much important matter; but Preambles now were almost invariably, if not invariably, purely formal, and the postponement of a Motion of that kind was evidently a proposal that ought not to give the power of debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, in Committee on a Bill, the Preamble do stand postponed until after the consideration of the Clauses, without Question put."—(Mr. Gladstone.)

MR. GORST

moved to add to the Resolution the words "except by leave of the Committee." He argued that it might sometimes be convenient that there should be a discussion on the Preamble of a Bill before the consideration of the clauses. If the Preamble were always to be postponed without Question put, the Government might find it difficult to announce the changes which were sometimes introduced into a Bill after the second reading. As an example of the measure which had undergone great changes at the hands of its framers after that stage he instanced the Boundary Bill of 1868.

Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words "except by leave of the Committee."—(Mr. Gorst.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. GLADSTONE

doubted if the Amendment would serve any purpose. He did not deny that there might be occasions when it would be convenient at the stage of Committee to make a statement with regard to changes introduced into a Bill. But an opportunity of making an explanation of that kind could be obtained by a Motion for Adjournment. The case would be exactly one of those in which a Motion for Adjournment could be legitimately proposed.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, he thought the course suggested by his hon. and learned Friend would be more convenient than that which the Prime Minister contemplated.

MR. GORST

said, after the statement of the Prime Minister he would not press his Amendment.

MR. WARTON

argued that if the Resolution were passed without alteration it would be in the power of a Minister to introduce most important matter into the Preamble of a Bill. Several cases had occurred of late in which principles which were objected to by many people had been laid down in Preambles. For instance, in a recent measure dealing with corruption, it was asserted in the Preamble that in certain cases boroughs ought to be punished by a suspension of Writs. In like manner in the Bill for closing public-houses on Sunday an assertion was made in the Preamble which he should feel bound to deny. In short, there was a great danger that absurd statements would be introduced into Preambles; and if the basis of a Bill was absurd, what must the superstructure be? He would like to know from the Speaker whether the "leave of the Committee" was the same as the "leave of the House?" and if it were he would move to omit the word "do," in order to insert "may, by leave of the Committee."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the word "do," and insert the words "may, by leave of the Com- mittee,"—(Mr. Warton,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the word 'do' stand part of the Question."

MR. SPEAKER

said, he was at a loss to see how, under the circumstances, the "leave of the Committee" was to be ascertained.

MR. WARTON

said, that the Chairman was to ask whether it was the wish of the Committee that the Preamble be postponed.

MR. GLADSTONE

remarked, that if any Member disputed that the Preamble be postponed it was in the power of the majority not to postpone it; but by the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member, one Member would be able to prevent its postponement.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

moved to add, at the end of the Rule, "unless on the application of the Member in charge of the Bill the Committee should otherwise order."

Amendment proposed, At the end of the Question, to add the words "unless on the application of the Member in charge of the Bill the Committee should otherwise order."—(Lord Randolph Churchill.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. GLADSTONE

pointed out that the Amendment might produce effects not contemplated by the noble Lord.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put. (6.) Resolved, That, in Committee on a Bill, the Preamble do stand postponed until after the consideration of the Clauses, without Question put.