HC Deb 10 November 1882 vol 274 cc1199-202
MR. HEALY

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether his attention has been called to a Report of the proceedings under the Arrears Act, before the Land Commission, in the "Freeman's Journal" of 28th October, where— In the case of John Johnson, tenant, General Irwin, landlord, Mr. M'Gough mentioned that half a year's rent was paid on the 3rd May 1882, which, he supposed, the tenant would be entitled to take credit for under the Arrears Act. Mr. Litton said he (Mr. M'Gough) would hare to exercise his own discretion in that case, as the matter might be a subject for argument. If he found on investigation that he had lodged too little by taking credit for payment in May, and the investigation took place after the 30th November, the tenant would be left out in the cold. This was another of the shortcomings of the Act. Mr. Vernon said this was a very great danger for the tenants to run. If they should be under the impression that they had satisfied the year's rent, and it should turn out at the investigation to be held after the 30th November that they had not legally done so, they would be out of court altogether; and, whether it is the fact that where the tenant claims he is entitled, in fulfilment of sub-section (a), section 1, to have rent paid in 1881 set to that year, and the landlord maintains that owing to the existence of a hanging gale no rent had at the time of payment become due for 1881, it will depend on the establishment or otherwise of the contention as to the hanging gale, whether sub-section (a), section 1, has been satisfied or not; and therefore, as this is a matter for the Court alone to decide, and appeals will lie first to the Head Commission and then to the Court of Appeal, so that a decision cannot be given before 30th November, he will say if he intends taking any steps so as to enable tenants, where a hanging gale which they dispute has been subsequently established, to amend or supplement their payments for 1881 after November 30th?

MR. TREVELYAN

Sir, I have no reason to doubt that the report mentioned in the Question is substantially accurate. It is undoubtedly true that in contentious cases the Court will have to decide whether there is a hanging gale or not; and, consequently, whether the conditions of Sub-section A, Section 1, of the Arrears of Rent Act have been complied with. To enable this decision to be arrived at as soon as possible, the Government, at the recommendation of the Land Commission, has sanctioned the appointment of a large additional number of investigators, amounting to 90 in all, by whose exertions it is hoped that a great many cases may be settled before the 30th of November; and the belief is entertained that provision may be made for enabling tenants in cases of doubt to lodge money provisionally in Court to abide the ultimate decision. A suggestion to this effect has been made; but the views of the Land Commission with reference to it have not yet been ascertained. I can hardly doubt I shall have those views by Monday.

MR. PARNELL

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether a lodgment of money in the Land Commission Court, as suggested by the Question of my hon. Friend, will protect the tenants from proceedings, in either the Superior Courts or the County Courts—proceedings in ejectment or for the recovery of rent? Perhaps I may be permitted to add, in explanation, that the proceedings suggested by the right hon. Gentleman are entirely proceedings in the Land Commission Court; but an entirely different set of proceedings may be set in motion by the action of the landlords in taking proceedings against the tenants in any of the other Courts of the country either in ejectment or for recovery of rent. Therefore, I desire to know whether the action suggested by the right hon. Gentleman in the lodgment of money by the tenant in the Land Commission Court is sufficient to cover the demand of the landlord in any case, no matter what the ultimate decision may be as regards the hanging gale?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this Question. My belief is that the lodgment will not in itself stay proceedings; but the Court in which proceedings are taken has jurisdiction to do so, and I can hardly doubt that under such circumstances it will exercise that power favourably to the tenant.

MR. PARNELL

May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether, in the event of a lodgment being made and the proceedings stayed, as predicted by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, a tenant would be safe from the costs of the suit?

MR. LEWIS

Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman answers the Question—["Order!"]

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

I shall answer one Question at a time. The cost of a suit would, generally speaking, very much depend upon whether the tenant was right or wrong. If the tenant proved to be right, the cost of the suit would be paid by the other side; if, on the other hand, he should fail, the costs would be given against him; but where the matter is doubtful, and it can hardly be ascertained which party is right or wrong, the general practice is for the Court to exercise its discretion and not to give costs to either party.

MR. LEWIS

inquired what money the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland referred to as to be lodged in Court?

MR. TREVELYAN

The money I referred to was the money that is to satisfy the rent for the year, which would govern the question whether the tenant's claim came within the scope of the Act or not.

MR. LEWIS

Does the right hon. Gentleman refer to the hanging gale?

MR. TREVELYAN

The matter refers to the hanging gale. The question which is now creating anxiety among the tenants is the question whether or not on the 30th of November they may lodge sufficient money to satisfy the conditions of the Act; and the desire of the Government, and I conclude the object of the Land Commission, would be to secure that the tenant who bonâ fide desires to lodge the rent for this critical year, shall come within the benefits of the Act.

MR. LEWIS

Really, I must call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman again to this matter. The right hon. Gentleman stated just now that the Government were in communication with the Land Commissioners to make arrangements that the tenant, upon depositing money in Court, shall have certain rights preserved to him. Reference was made to the effect which the hanging gale plus the year's rent would have.

MR. TREVELYAN

The question is, for instance, whether money that is paid in May, 1882, will go to pay the rent for 1881, in the case of an estate where there is a hanging gale of a certain date, in order that the tenant may not be ultimately refused the benefits of the Act. It is hoped that the Commissioners will adopt rules by which he will be enabled to lodge in Court the amount of money which will make him quite secure. I think I have stated the matter clearly.