HC Deb 23 May 1882 vol 269 cc1506-11

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of allowances to Judges; and remuneration to persons appointed to investigate claims for compensation, as well as of allowances to officers and others, and of any expenses which may become payable under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for the Prevention of Crime in Ireland."—(Mr. Trevelyan.)

MR. HEALY

asked, whether, when the Prevention of Crime Bill got into Committee, the House would be informed what the exact remuneration of the stipendiary magistrates would be, together with the names of the special constabulary officers who were to carry out the Act, and the amounts they were to receive?

MR. DAWSON

said, he wished to know from the Law Officers what was really the distinction between Resident Magistrates and ordinary magistrates? It had been his privilege once to hear a great Constitutional lawyer—Chief Justice Whiteside—lay down the principle that there was no distinction, except for the legal acumen of the Resident Magistrates.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

said, there was no distinction, with one or two exceptions, he believed.

MR. DAWSON

said, every day in Ireland the ordinary magistrate was dwindled into insignificance by the Resident Magistrate.

DR. COMMINS

said, there were a great number of Statutes, from which it appeared that a Resident Magistrate was equal to two ordinary magistrates.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

, said, he thought that only appeared in one or two Acts.

MR. CALLAN

asked whether there was any intention to limit the duration of office of Resident Magistrates? The Resident Magistrates, who had power to give six months' imprisonment without appeal, were the persons who were consulted by the police, and who directed them, to institute prosecutions. Was there any intention to alter that state of things?

MR. HEALY

begged to repeat his question with regard to the amounts to be paid to the Resident Magistrates, whose salaries were now to come out of the Consolidated Fund.

MR. DAWSON

said, that the Resident Magistrates were merely appointed, because of their local knowledge, to assist ordinary magistrates; and he had heard Chief justice Whiteside strongly condemn the conduct of an ordinary magistrate who gave way to a Resident Magistrate. It was becoming quite the rule in Ireland for the whole judicial functions of the Executive to be centred in those dictators, who ruled with the most imperious hand both the magistrates and the people of Ireland. Why were these Resident Magistrates chosen to be the new Judges? They were the men who reduced a policemen if he did not bring forward charges of crime, and then they became the judges of the crimes themselves. He thought the attention of the House should be strongly directed to this matter. By this system the magistrates had been made bad by exalting them, and it made the ordinary magistrates bad by degrading them from their proper functions.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, he was not aware that this Committee had any reference to Resident Magistrates. There was no proposal in the Bill to take any money for Resident Magistrates, and the money part of the Bill only referred to the Judges and the extra work which they would have to perform. He, therefore, hoped that there would be no further opposition to this proposal, which was merely to provide extra salaries for the discharge of extra duties.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that, as far as he could understand, the House was now being asked to grant facilities for the furtherance of a system of policy which was to substitute arbitrary power for the last vestiges of Constitutional Law in Ireland; and he was disposed to oppose that proposition according to the Constitutional Forms of the House. He was disposed to take a division against the proposal—in the first place, because it seemed to him that the proposal assumed that the prospect of the Bill which was at present before the House being amended in any essential degree was absolutely hopeless. The House was also left entirely in the dark as to the manner in which these proposed agents of coercion were to be remunerated. He had not the slightest idea of, and no information had been afforded as to, the manner in which this remuneration would be apportioned; and, under those circumstances, he was not inclined to take a leap in the dark, especially in connection with such a subject. He had been unable to catch exactly the precise form in which the questions had been put to the House, although there had been a good deal of examination and cross-examination between hon. Members on both sides of the House; but, as far as he could gather, the present question was one upon which a division could be taken, and if he could find a Teller, or one hon. Member to divide with him, he would take a division against any measure to be used as an excuse for furthering the establishment of Constitutional despotism in Ireland.

MR. HEALY

said, he regarded this matter as purely pro formâ, and did not see any necessity for entering any protest upon it. He simply raised the question for information, thinking that the salary of the Resident Magistrates was involved; but if the Judges were to have extra work they would surely have to be paid for it.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, he objected to the extra payments to Judges under these circumstances. He did not like the idea of paying either by piecework or by the day in the case of jurors to whom such powers would be given as were now to be established in Ireland. The further subvention of Government functionaries in the place of Constitutional juries was a proposition which should be opposed from the initial step in which it came before the House. If he was not supported his opposition would fall to the ground; if he was supported he should go to a division.

MR. SEXTON

said, he thought there was a good deal in what his hon. Friend had said. The Government were proposing to take the first step for providing funds for persons who were to have duties imposed upon them under the Prevention of Crime Act; and he thought it would have been more orderly to wait till the Bill had passed through Committee, because then it would be known whether those duties were to devolve on the Judges or not.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, that course could not be adopted, because the House could not go into Committee upon a Bill containing money charges without this Motion. The hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) was quite right in regarding this as a formal proceeding to allow a Vote in Committee in regard to a Bill which included money provisions, and the Motion in no way affected the principle of the Bill. It was simply a formal proceeding, which was absolutely necessary before the House could go into Committee on any measure including money charges.

MR. SEXTON

said, he was very sorry the Government had not seen their way to tell them what was the amount of remuneration they proposed to give. If they found the amount proposed to be given to the Judges was in excess of what they considered proper, they would, no doubt, think that it might assume, to a great extent, the form and nature of a bribe. There might be excessive remuneration given for the purpose, and the Judges might be disposed to give decisions very much opposed to the public interest. He was inclined to support his hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell).

MR. TREVELYAN

said, that no extra allowances would be paid to the Resident Magistrates, and as soon as the allowances to the Judges were fixed he would communicate the information to the House.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, the proposal was practically in the nature of a Vote of Supply for Coercion, and it was with regard to its special application to the Judges that objection was taken. There were two facts before the Committee. The first fact was that the Judges of Ireland had unanimously protested against the new duties; and the second fact was that the Government proposed to give to these unwilling Judges such pecuniary inducement as would soften their disinclination and cause them to take up the odious work of coercion. There could be no more scandalous proposal. No proposal had been made with such indecent haste, and no proposal could be more calculated to fill the people of Ireland with the most justifiable distrust of the powers proposed to be conferred on the Judges. They had got the whole Irish Bench protesting against the proposal to convert them into Judge and jury at once; and they had the Treasury asking the Representatives of the Irish people to facilitate them in the work of placing such pecuniary rewards at the disposal of the Judges as would induce them to take up the work of coercion. That was the plain English of such a proposal. If such a proposal were made in a foreign Parliament, there was no English paper that would not hold it up to scorn and detestation. They held it up to the scorn and detestation of every son of Ireland, in whatever part of the world he might be. If there was an objectionable feature in the proposed coercion, the proposal to bribe the Judges of Ireland to go against their own consciences was, perhaps, the most atrocious.

DR. COMMINS

said, he confessed there was something which was very singular in the proposal. The suggestion to give remuneration to the Judges came upon them by surprise.

MR. TREVELYAN

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to Clause 24.

DR. COMMINS

said, that clause only made the thing worse. Special Commissions were not unknown in England; and he challenged the Home Secretary, who, no doubt, was well acquainted with the subject, to point out a single instance in which a Judge, for holding a special commission, had received one penny in addition to his stated salary. It was only a few years ago that there were only two commissions of gaol delivery in the year; now there were four; so that the work of the Judges in this respect had been simply doubled. Not a farthing, however, had been added to their salary. No such inducement to perform the extra work was offered to them as was now offered by this Bill to the Irish Judges.

MR. SEXTON

asked whether, when they got to that part of the Bill providing for the establishment of a Court of Special Commission, the Chief Secretary would state what amount it was proposed to give to the Judges?

MR. TREVELYAN

promised to state the amount before they got to the clause.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 92; Noes 21: Majority 71.—(Div. List, No. 100.)

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.