HC Deb 17 March 1882 vol 267 cc1230-42

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £7,772, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries, Allowances, and Expenses of various County Court Officers, and of Magistrates in Ireland, and of the Revising Barristers of the City of Dublin.

MR. SEXTON

said, he had not been aware what the Vote was which was coming on first. He did not think it would be proper to pass over this Vote without some comment upon the new system of appointing magistrates, which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland had inaugurated in Ireland. He did not know whether the public interests had been benefited by the appointment of those magistrates. For some years the administration of justice in many districts had been presided over by unpaid magistrates, who naturally felt great displeasure when military gentlemen were set over them by the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He had never yet been able to gather that either the unpaid or the resident magistrates in Ireland were considered to be not devoted to the maintenance of the law; and, so far as the resident magistrates were concerned, they certainly did not show any remarkable partiality for the feelings of the Irish people. For his own part, he was entirely at a loss to understand why it had been considered necessary to supersede the authority of the unpaid magistrates. This was what the right hon. Gentleman had done. He had divided certain districts in Ireland into what, to borrow an Oriental phrase, might be regarded as Pashalics, and had established Pashas with independent power to subvert the law, and to exercise arbitrary powers, free from all control. As far as he had been able to examine into the matter, he was not aware of any beneficial effects that had followed from the inauguration of the now system. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman, in his recent. visit to Ireland, paid many visits, and took many drives and luncheons with this new class of officials; but he was not aware that they had done anything to justify their appointment, or the extraordinary powers which had been placed in their hands. Mr. Clifford Lloyd, after a brief sojourn at Kilmallock, had been made superintendent magistrate. The unpaid magistrates were inclined to feel that the establishment of this new authority conveyed something like a reproach upon the old authority, and that it was not conducive to the preservation of law and order. What was likely to be the feeling of the resident magistrates of Ireland, and the unpaid justices, when they found themselves superseded, shelved, and set aside by some military or semi-military gentleman who had had the equivocal honour of obtaining the approval of the right hon. Gentleman? The state of the county of Clare had been worse since Mr. Clifford Lloyd was appointed superintendent magistrate than it was before. And it was not at all a matter of astonishment. Mr. Clif- ford Lloyd wade his appearance in the town of Killmallock without any warning to the other magistrates; and the first intimation they had of his appointment was the spectacle of a stalwart gentleman in a suit of grey tweed, walking about the town, and inaugurating himself into office by laying his cane over the backs of the citizens in the streets. One of his first acts was to arrest a number of ladies. When Mr. Parnell visited the town, and was received with cordiality, Mr. Clifford Lloyd and his policemen instituted a prosecution against various ladies for obstruction or intimidation, or some of the other offences which it was now the fashion to set up in Ireland. The result was a ridiculous fiasco. On another occasion Mr. Clifford Lloyd, going round the village, found himself shouted at, to the danger of his dignity, by a boy of six years old, with the portentous name of Sampson. The formidable enemy to the British Crown was taken into custody and sent to prison. He might go into the acts of some other gentlemen; but he was inclined, on the whole, to confine himself to those of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, whose services, from a Governmental point of view, were considered to be of such immense value that, in order to make provision for him, they had superseded without consulting all the other magistrates of the district. He did not think there was anything in the condition of Ireland to justify the erection of this new class of magisterial semi-Pashalics. The result had been to excite the public temper and inflame the mind of the people of Ireland. The policy of the Government had excited especially the reckless classes, who were not under the control of responsible politicians, to the commission of midnight acts of violence and illegality which, so far from ceasing, would, in his opinion, continue and increase until the Government had the courage to bring in wise and temperate remedial legislation, and until they had the sense to appeal to the good feeling of the Irish people, by ceasing to apply unconstitutional checks to public liberty in Ireland.

MR. BIGGAR

said, this Vote was composed of a number of items so badly arranged that, with regard to many of them, the Committee were not in possession of any explanation at all. He had looked carefully into the Estimate, and he found that different sums were lumped together in such a way as to render it perfectly impossible to discover how the various officials were paid on account of whom money was charged for salaries. For instance, the salaries of 15 extra magistrates and of six special magistrates were all lumped together. The Committee were entitled to information with regard to these items; and he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland what was the amount of salary paid to each of the 15 extra and six special magistrates, and whether that included assistance and extra pay? He would also ask the right hon. Gentleman as to the amount of success which had followed the appointment of these two classes of magistrates? Irish Members were being kept quite in the dark with regard to the action of these officials and the results which followed it. Their only source of information was the newspapers; and when they quoted these in reference to any matter that occurred and required explanation, Irish Members were informed that the newspaper reports were not to be relied upon. For that reason he applied to the right hon. Gentleman for a special Report as to the progress of affairs in the Department in question.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the salaries of the temporary magistrates appointed were the same as those of the third class resident magistrates—namely £47 10s. per month. The allowance for a clerk and private secretary in the case of the special magistrates was £100 and £150 respectively for each of those assistants. With regard to the opinion of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) as to the feeling of the unpaid resident magistrates on the subject of the appointment of the special magistrates, he assured him there was no need for anxiety on that ground. In the present state of certain districts in Ireland, where there was great difficulty in preventing outrage, it was considered desirable that two or three additional magistrates should be appointed, having jurisdiction over a large area, for the purpose of arranging police patrols and preventing outrages as much as possible. They had also to take care that no more men were employed in any district than were necessary. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) had asked what amount of suc- cess had attended the appointment of the temporary and special magistrates. A certain amount of outrage had been detected; but, as the hon. Member was aware, the discovery of outrage was a matter attended with the greatest difficulty. Her Majesty's Government could hardly look for a great amount of success; and, therefore, they were obliged to be thankful for whatever good result attended their endeavours to protect life and property in Ireland.

MR. LEAMY

asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it was a fact, as stated by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) some days since, that during the last few months the outrages committed in county Clare, while Mr. Clifford Lloyd was there, were twice as numerous as they had been in the corresponding period of last year? Hon. Members were informed that Mr. Clifford Lloyd was invested with extraordinary powers, which appeared to make him almost supreme in that part of Ireland; and they were also told that he was selected because he had brought some districts of Ireland into something like a peaceful condition. That being the case, it was very desirable that the Committee should be informed what was the exact measure of success that had attended his administration. He believed that no Member of that House had the slightest idea of the absolute power which had been placed in the hands of Mr. Clifford Lloyd; and he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it was a fact that some time ago Mr. Clifford Lloyd had threatened some tradesmen for not supplying goods to a person in their locality; whether he had said that if they continued in their refusal he would take steps to punish them; and whether, within the last few days, three persons had in consequence been arrested by him? Hon. Members were entitled to know if these things were true, and whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd could of his own motion decree that exclusive dealing was an offence punishable by law. He would also like to know whether there was any objection to state with what offence the persons who had been arrested were charged in the warrants? The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) had asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what was the extra remuneration given to each of the special magistrates; but the right hon. Gentleman in his reply had not told the Committee what this amounted to. He (Mr. Leamy) would therefore put that question again, and two or three others, to the right hon. Gentleman, for the purpose of clearing up the various items of charge in connection with the extra and special magistrates. (1.) What was the salary of the special magistrates? (2.) What was their extra remuneration in addition to their salaries? (3.) What was the subsistence allowance which each received? And, finally, what was the amount of salaries and subsistence allowances to the clerks?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, if the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Leamy) would give Notice, as had been suggested by him, of his Question relating to the condition of Clare, he would take care that the subject should be inquired into and an answer given. It was perfectly true that the gentleman so often alluded to—Mr. Clifford Lloyd—had worked a great change in a part of Limerick in which there had been a great deal of outrage. The number of outrages had been less since he was there, and it was to be hoped that his endeavours would be attended with success in county Clare. Mr. Clifford Lloyd had no official or magisterial power beyond that of any other magistrates. The official salary of the special magistrates was £47 10s. per month; private secretary's salary, £150; and clerk's salary, £100.

MR. LEAMY

said, the right hon. Gentleman had not stated the amount of the extra remuneration and the subsistence allowance.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, in addition to the salary of £47 10s. per month, the special magistrates received a personal allowance of one guinea per day and their travelling expenses.

MR. E. POWER

said, that while the Estimate contained charges for extra remuneration to six special magistrates, and for the salaries of six clerks to assist them in their duties, there was no charge for clerks to the 15 extra magistrates. He would like to know why one class of magistrates had clerks and the other not?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the reason why clerks were given to the special magistrates was because it was impossible for them to get through their work without such assistance, owing to the very considerable extent of area under their supervision.

MR. LEAMY

said, he understood that the special magistrate received, first, a salary; secondly, extra remuneration; and, thirdly, subsistence allowance. The right hon. Gentleman had stated the amount of extra remuneration; but he had not told the Committee what was the original salary received. He asked what was the annual average sum which each of the six special magistrates received?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the special magistrates received an allowance of one guinea per day, instead of the 15s. given to other magistrates. Travelling expenses were given to them all. They received £47 10s. per month, in addition to their present salaries, whatever those might be. They were not appointed for more than six months, although, of course, it was possible that their services might be required for a longer time.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he had listened with attention to the replies of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland; but no answer had been given to the question of the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Leamy) as to whether certain persons had been put in prison as "suspects" under the Coercion Act for simply refusing to supply goods at their shops to a Mrs. Moroney? It was notorious that both the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Prime Minister had, over and over again, declared that the refusal to supply goods was not an offence against the law; that no one was bound to supply goods or deal with any other person unless they liked to do so, although, of course, threatening a person for supplying goods was quite a different thing. If it were true that the persons referred to by the hon. Member for Waterford had been treated as described, he believed that Mr. Clifford Lloyd would come within the Act which made it illegal for any person to threaten another with regard to the sale of goods. It seemed to him that there was some official in Ireland who had invented a new offence, by making it illegal to do what the Prime Minister and Chief Secretary had repeatedly declared last year to be no offence at all.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he believed the hon. Member for Waterford was not in possession of the real facts relating to the arrests referred to; but if he would put a Question on the Paper he (Mr. W. E. Forster) would then be able to give him a definite answer. As regarded the question of refusing to deal, as he had frequently stated, that was not an offence; but it was an offence, by intimidation, to prevent people from doing that which they had a right to do. He was not aware that any legal steps had been taken against persons in Ireland under such circumstances as the hon. Member had alluded to, except where there had been intimidation.

MR. R. POWER

asked the amount of Major Bond's salary, and whether it was included in this Estimate? He also desired to know the extent of the district over which he presided, and the number of arrests that had taken place there?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the salary of Major Bond was the same as that of the temporary resident magistrates of the third class. Major Bond's district was in the neighbourhood of Loughmask, in the county of Mayo. He might say that no arrests had been made there under the Act for the Protection of Person and Property at the suggestion of Major Bond.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he could not remember that any expression of opinion had been made by the right hon. Gentleman as to the extent to which Major Bond had given satisfaction in the position which he held. He should be glad to hear something upon that point; and whether it was likely that Major Bond would be continued in the office of magistrate after the time for which he was originally appointed had expired?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he thought the hon. Member for Cavan must be aware that no reports were made to the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland as to the satisfactory way in which magistrates might perform their duties. On the other hand, he had received no complaints with regard to Major Bond, whose continuance in office, like that of other magistrates, would rest with the discretion of the Government when the time for which he was appointed expired.

Question put.

1The Committee divided:—Ayes 124; Noes 6: Majority 118.—(Div. List, No. 52.)

(2.) £135,000, Zulu, &c. Wars.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

wished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury for some explanation of this Vote. It was divided into three heads; one of which, Sub-head A, was an item of £129,000, claims against Natal. It seemed to him that this was a charge which Natal might properly pay, and upon which the Government could insist. Sub-head B contained the charges for the Zulu Boundary Commission; and he wished to know whether this country was to pay the whole of those expenses? On the item of £4,300 in Sub-head C he would also like some explanation. There was a foot-note stating that the Government had agreed to accept £250,000 towards the expense of these wars; but that was a contribution very much less than the amount which, in his opinion, would be fairly due from the Natal Government. At the same time, he quite recognized the difficulty the Government might have in insisting upon a larger contribution from Natal; and what he wished to ask was, whether the agreement to contribute this amount had been sanctioned by the Legislature of Natal; and, if so, why the amount had not been paid to the credit of the Imperial Government; because if it had been paid there would have been, as he understood, no necessity for the Committee now to vote this sum of £129,000 which appeared in the Estimate?

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, it might have been a legitimate course for the Government to omit these contributions from the Estimate; but they had thought it more fair to show the House the whole cost of the Zulu War, and the amount of contributions. One side showed the cost of the War; the other showed the amounts contributed by the Colonies. With regard to the question whether the contribution by Natal had been sanctioned by the Assembly, not only had a Vote been passed, but a local Act had been passed, a compromise as to all the charges being finally arrived at after prolonged negotiation. The Colony wished for the Assent of Her Majesty to an Act for the raising of a loan, and it was agreed that that Assent should be given on the condition that part of the loan was applied to the purpose of this contribution. The Act had been passed, and tenders had been obtained; and it was expected that within a few weeks the first part of the loan—£250,000—would be issued. As to the various items, he thought the right hon. Gentleman would really be able to give the Committee as much information as he could, the entire expenses having been incurred while the right hon. Gentleman was in Office. Full information was given in the Report presented to Parliament by the Commission appointed to inquire into these matters. The third item was an advance made for arming the Colonial troops. It was thought absolutely necessary that they should be armed, for the safety of Natal; but the Colony had not at the time the necessary funds. Also in the Transvaal War it was considered necessary to establish a telegraph system; and as the Colony had not the means for doing that the necessary money was advanced. The expense of the Zulu Boundary Commission also had to be advanced; and it would be a nice question how far the Natal Government were interested in that matter. The items under Sub-head C were expenses incurred by the Army in connection with the War, and those expenses had hitherto stood either in the books of the War Office or the books of the Treasury. They had never been finally adjusted; and the Government considered that it was more fair to bring them before the attention of the House by taking a Vote for them.

MR. RYLANDS

said, he thought that the statement of the noble Lord was very satisfactory as far as it went, but scarcely embraced all the information the Committee was entitled to receive. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), having been the former Secretary for the Colonies, would no doubt recollect that in the last Parliament he (Mr. Rylands) brought forward a Resolution with regard to the War Charges which might fairly be claimed from Natal and from the Cape. He was met by the late Government with the assurance that they entirely agreed with his view as to the justice and necessity of pressing on the Governments of Natal and the Cape the claims this country had upon them for the War expenses. He believed that during the time of the late Government there was some Correspondence with the Cape and Natal upon this subject; but the Government were unable to bring the two Colonies to any arrangement. He believed he was correct in saying that the late Government sent out to South Africa experienced officers of the Treasury to inquire into these charges and report to the Government at home upon them. He now desired to ask the noble Lord what had been done since then by the present Government with a view to impressing on these Colonies the necessity of refunding to this country the considerable sums of money which were due on account of the War expenditure? The contribution from Natal was much less than might be required; and he presumed the explanation the Government would give for not getting more than £250,000 would be that they had got as much as they could, and had been obliged to adopt a singular expedient to compel the Natal Government to pay even what was really a small sum in comparison with the amounts advanced by this country. As he understood it, the Government stipulated that the loan for the purposes of railways should not be sanctioned by the Government unless the first portion of the loan was devoted to the payment of £250,000. Having regard to the fact that the Cape Colony was much more wealthy than Natal, that it had full representation and a very large amount of power in the transaction of its affairs, and having regard to all the circumstances that had occurred during these wars, in which that Colony was so much interested, it was not, and could not be satisfactory that the British taxpayer should be called upon to pay such an enormous sum of money on account of the wars in South Africa; and, as far as he knew, no money had been received from the Cape. He should be glad to find that he overlooked anything in the Papers; but he had no recollection of having seen any statement which would show that the Cape Government had either paid, or promised to pay, any money on account of the large sums which had been paid by the British Government. He hoped to hear from the noble Lord that the Government had these matters under their attention, and that there was some prospect of relief to the British taxpayer.

COLONEL NOLAN

said, that during the last five years we had had wars with the Transvaal and the Zulus, and then we had had the Boers engaged in keeping the Zulus in check. We had had a very disagreeable war with the Boers, and after these blunders we could not expect the South African to pay the cost of these stupid wars. It was the greatest folly on our part to interfere in South Africa, and we must pay the money. We ought not to interfere unless we were prepared to arm the Natives and pay the expense. It was the greatest folly to endanger our position in South Africa by these wars.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

inquired how we were to get this money from the Government of Natal? The Government had offered to give Constitutional government to Natal; therefore, how were we to force them to vote £250,000? Could we expect that they would vote enormous sums for the services we rendered at Laing's Nek?

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, he could rot see how the Colonies were to pay this money, or how we could ask them for it. The policy of the Government had entirely broken the connection between Natal and the Cape, by the appointment of two separate Governors and that would certainly be an additional reason why we should not ask them for any amount of money.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) did not seem to have a very high opinion of the loyalty and good faith of the Colonial Governments. The Government of Natal passed an Act to provide this money, and he saw no reason for supposing that they would not fulfil their engagement. He agreed with the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) in regretting that the contributions made were not larger; but there had been no want of will on his part to make these contributions larger; but it must be remembered that from the Cape point of view the interest of the Cape in the Zulu War was not as great as that of the Imperial Government. That War was undertaken for the benefit of Natal, and the Cape had nothing to do with it, and no interest in it. They entirely declined to pay anything in respect of that War; but after a long negotiation they had agreed to pay £150,000. He did not think that at that time of night it would be of any use to enter into the various expenses of the South African Wars.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS- BEACH

asked whether all the Correspondence with the Cape and Natal upon this question, subsequent to the assumption of Office by the present Government, would be published; because it was desirable that the House should know how this amount had been arrived at? He also wished to know whether the loan of the Natal Government had been guaranteed by the Imperial Government?

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

, in reply, said, that there was no guarantee by this country. The Correspondence could be laid upon the Table if moved for.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

asked whether the £250,000 had been already voted by the Natal Government, or whether it was to be voted under the new Constitution which the Earl of Kimberley had offered to Natal? Popular Governments were not so ready to vote money as Governments which were under the domination of Governors.

LORD PREDERICK CAVENDISH

replied, that this money was provided for in the Act for railway purposes.

Vote agreed to.