§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the Secretary of State for War after what hour that evening he did not intend to proceed with his Statement on the Army Estimates?
§ MR. CHILDERSSir, I intended when the Order was called to have made a statement to the House on this subject; but I may as well embody it in my answer to the hon. Gentleman. What I was going to say to the House is this—It is absolutely necessary, in order to comply with the requirements of the financial system—and those who have held Office at the Treasury will know exactly what I mean—that the first two Votes in the Army Estimates and in the Navy Estimates be reported not later than next Monday. If this is not done, it is difficult to say how illegality can be avoided. There are only two days in this week on which the Government could by any possibility take these Votes—namely, Monday and Thursday; and it has fallen to my lot to take the Army Estimates on the first of those days, and to the Secretary to the Admiralty to take the Navy Estimates on the second. Therefore, I put it to the House whether it would not be for their convenience that we should go into Committee today on the Army Estimates at as early an hour as possible, and on the Navy Estimates early on Thursday? It is absolutely necessary that we should go into Committee at some hour to-night, however late it may be.
§ MR. O'DONNELLasked the Secretary of State for War if the extreme urgency of proceeding with the Army Estimates to-night was present to the mind of the Government when they invited the House to engage in a fortnight's abstract discussion on the House of Lords?
MR. GORSTwished to know whether, in the event of those who had Notices on the Paper waiving their right that 754 evening, the Government would undertake to put down Supply for Monday week, in order that these Motions might then be brought on? He asked this because he had himself an important Motion on the Paper.
SIR WALTER B.BARTTELOTasked the Secretary of State for War to give them an assurance that there would be ample opportunity for the discussion of the questions concerning the Army. If the Vote was allowed to be taken at a late hour that night there would be no opportunity for full discussion.
§ MR. CHILDERSI have great pleasure in giving that assurance in the fullest and most unequivocal terms. The Votes for men and money must be taken to-night; but I will take care—as I did last year—that a future opportunity shall be provided as soon as possible for discussing the Estimates.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHWill there also be a full opportunity of discussing the Navy Estimates? Last year, although an engagement similar to the present was entered into by the Government, there was no discussion of the Estimates until August. It would be discreditable, in view of the serious subjects to be considered in this connection, if that example was to be followed this year.
MR. GLADSTONEThe general assurance of my right hon. Friend refers undoubtedly to both branches of the Service. The right hon. Gentleman opposite says, with great truth, it would not be creditable that the Navy Estimates should not be discussed until August. I entirely agree with him; but I go further, and say that the entire state of the arrangements for the discharge of Public Business are as far as possible from being creditable to the House.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEI rise to ask the Prime Minister, as he cannot undertake to put down Supply for next week, what Business he will then proceed with?
MR. GORSTAt what specific time will the opportunity of discussing the Army and Navy Estimates be given?
§ COLONEL ALEXANDERI cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman 755 the Secretary of State for War that sufficient opportunity was given last year for discussing the Army Estimates. All the opportunity we got was a Morning Sitting after Easter. [Cries of "Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Member is not in Order in making this matter a subject of debate.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTI am not at all satisfied with the assurances given as to the discussion on the Army Estimates. The Prime Minister must know that we are entirely at his mercy, and——
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Gentleman has already spoken on this question. [Cries of "Move!"]
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTThen, Sir, I will venture to ask for a definite assurance that we shall have a fair opportunity of discussing the Estimates before Easter. Otherwise we cannot undertake that the Votes will be passed this evening.
MR. JOSEPH COWENI would ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the state of Public Business, he could not adjourn the Resolutions regarding Procedure? [Cries of''Order!"] I am only asking a Question—whether he would not postpone his Procedure Resolutions till after Easter, so as to allow the Army and Navy and some of the Civil Service Estimates to be proceeded with in the meanwhile, and then go on with the Procedure Resolutions continuously?
MR. GORSTsaid, he rose for the purpose of moving the adjournment of the House for the purpose of eliciting, if possible, from Her Majesty's Government some more satisfactory assurance than they had yet condescended to give as to the opportunity which would be afforded to Members to do their duty to their constituents. He had been for many years a Member of that House re-presenting a Dockyard constituency; and e regretted to say that, both under the late Government and the present, the Naval Estimates had not come on for discussion until August. He ventured to say that in the present condition of the British Navy, it was important that questions should be raised on the Naval Estimates; and it was not creditable to the business capacity of the House that the discussion of those questions should 756 be relegated to so late a period as July or August. He and other Members were there especially to watch and criticize the action of the Government in those matters. The Secretary of State for War had stated that it would be impossible to take the Army Vote to-night. He had asked the Prime Minister whether, if he and others gave way, he would give some further opportunity of bringing forward those questions. The Prime Minister answered that he would not. Then the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary to the Admiralty had both stated that further opportunities would be given for discussing the Army and Navy Estimates. When, however, he asked the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government when those opportunities would be given he received an extremely curt reply, to the effect that at some indefinite future time he would be kind enough to inform the House when those opportunities would be given. Before hon. Members gave way they were entitled to be distinctly told when those opportunities would be given. If the right hon. Gentleman told them that he would allow that important discussion to be taken next week, he, for one, would be perfectly ready to offer every facility to the Government. Members opposite below the Gangway thought they had nothing to do but vote with the Government. But those who took a different view of their duties and were interested in examining the naval and military expenditure of the country were not to be put off as they had been. He was not exceeding his rights as a Member of the House when he asked the Government to give them some assurance as to the time at which an opportunity would be given of discussing those Votes. He begged to move the adjournment of the House.
§ MR. WARTONin seconding the Motion, said, he did so in no Party sense, but to show the Government that the House was not to be trifled with. Ministers had already wasted five Government nights in succession, four in an attack on the other House, and one in an attack on the Procedure of that House, and now they came down and implored the House to help them out of the mess they had got themselves in. He wished to remind the Prime Minister that of all the vices in this world the most expensive was that of temper.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Gorst.)
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that it seemed to be the deliberate intention of Gentlemen opposite to throw every obstruction possible in the way of Public Business. ["No, no!"] He was not alluding to hon. Members from Ireland, but to the Conservative Party. Everybody knew their object. It was to go to their constituents at the end of the Session and say that the Liberals had promised grandly, but done nothing. But whose would be the fault? It would belong to the Conservatives themselves. How was it possible to go on with the Business when every day time was consumed by Motions? [An hon. MEMBER: Bradlaugh.] An hon. Member hinted that he (Mr. Labouchere) did the very thing that he complained of. He had never brought forward a Motion like the present one, with the object of Obstruction, and with no desire to see it passed. The Motions proposed by himself had had specific objects, and he had always wished to pass them. He hoped the Prime Minister would stand to his guns. What had just occurred proved better than any argument that it was necessary, as soon as possible, to carry those excellent Resolutions respecting the Business of the House which the Prime Minister had moved. If, after the statement made from the Treasury Bench that it was absolutely necessary to pass certain Votes to-night, hon. Gentlemen chose to take the responsibility of postponing those Votes by the use of obstructive tactics, let them accept that responsibility before the country. He hoped the Prime Minister would next week insist on taking the debate on clôture and the other Procedure Resolutions from day to day until they were disposed of.
MR. GLADSTONESir, I do not intend to enter into the contentious part of this discussion, and I shall be satisfied to pass by in silence the various taunts that have been thrown out against the Government with respect to the debate which, on account of their responsibility for the maintenance of law and order in Ireland, they thought it necessary to give occasion for by submitting a Resolution to this House, although I do not say that they have any responsibility for the extent of four 758 nights of this debate. I rise to show, as I think I can, the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) that there is good cause why his Motion should be withdrawn, and that he has not exactly apprehended the position of affairs with regard to the Question that has been put to me. But I may observe that there is, at all events, some merit in this—that whereas it has been very common during recent weeks to find fault with the answers given by Members of the Government to Questions for being too long, I am now taken to task by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham for making my answer too short. We shall endeavour, on all occasions, if we can, to hit the golden mean which lies between the extremes of prolixity and undue brevity. The hon. and learned Gentleman has, perhaps inadvertently, stated the circumstances not quite accurately. He said that he had asked me whether we should offer any time for the discussion of Motions, in which he seems now to have had in view his own Motion, and that I said I could not name any time. What the hon. and learned Gentleman did was this. He made himself the sponsor of no less than 11 Motions; and he then asked me if, in the present state of Public Business, not "would I be disposed to give time for any of these Motions?" but "are you prepared to name a day when these Motions may be proceeded with?" These two things are entirely different. The Motion of which the hon. and learned Member has given Notice tonight is one with regard to which he has a right to see that it should not be subjected to unnecessary disappointment. I hope he will, therefore, see that I have not met his Motion in the spirit which he has stated. The whole of my statement amounts to this—that I am not prepared, at the present time, to name a day when Supply could be postponed, in order to give facility for the Motion. We have got the full work of the week before us, and the full work, I apprehend, of next week before us. Under these circumstances, I do not think the House will be of opinion that I should hold out expectations which I might not be able to redeem. We are of opinion that, subject to matters of primary necessity, it is our duty to proceed with 759 those Resolutions of which we have given Notice, with regard to the Procedure of this House. When we are told that it is not desirable to postpone the discussion, in detail, of the Army and Navy Estimates until July or August, there is no one who feels the truth of the proposition more keenly and acutely than we do. We are now in the beginning of March, and we believe that by taking the judgment of the House on matters of procedure, and by endeavouring, if we can, to arrange a good system, both with regard to procedure, so called, and with regard to the devolution or delegation of labour, we are really offering to the House the best security that we can offer them for the discussion of Estimates in proper time. Nothing could be more improper than the postponement of these measures to a late period of the Session. When I decline now to name a day, it is because it is not customary, and would not be convenient, to name days for what is not in immediate prospect. It is with a view to the proper disposal of Supply that we are about to submit our Resolutions to the House. One of the principal objects we have in view, whatever may be the form which those Resolutions may ultimately assume, is the effective and early discussion of matters in Supply. I hope I have explained that I by no means intended to make light of the subject of the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham, which I think is one that appeals very strongly to us, and I certainly should be very sorry if we were not able to suggest to the House some method by which that Motion should be discussed.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he wished, as far as possible, to save the time of the House; and he hoped, therefore, that the discussion would not be continued, and that the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chatham would not be pressed. At the same time, he desired to point out that the matter did not entirely lie as the Prime Minister would lead them to suppose. According to him it would seem as if the Business of the day were properly the Army Estimates, and that any opposition in the nature of a Motion on going into Committee of Supply was abnormal, and stood in the way of the regular Business. It was, however, an admitted principle that 760 questions of grievance preceded Supply; and, of course, those hon. Gentlemen who put down Notices of Motions had primâ facie a perfect right to expect to have an opportunity of bringing them forward. Then an appeal was made by the Government to those hon. Gentlemen to waive or curtail their privilege on this occasion, in order that the Government might proceed with the Army Estimates. All hon. Members-were anxious that the Army Estimates should be proceeded with in proper time, and were willing to accept the statement that they must be dealt with to-night. But the Gentlemen who waived or curtailed their right to bring forward Motions were hardly to blame if they asked when an opportunity would be given to them. He did not think they had been treated with that consideration which ought to have been shown to them under the circumstances. Those hon. Members had been told what they could, not have, but they had not been told what they could have. He would urge the House not to waste any time in a discussion on the Motion for Adjournment, but to go on with the Business. They must all see where the responsibility would lie. At all events, hon. Members on that side of the House had a pretty strong opinion on the subject. Nothing could be more unedifying than to continue a discussion of this sort; and, therefore, he hoped that his hon. and learned Friend would not press his Motion.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, that he happened to have the first Motion on the Paper that night. Nothing would be further from his desire than to stand in the way of the Army Estimates, or in the way of the debate regarding Procedure, and he should be most happy to withdraw his Motion unconditionally, if that would serve the purpose which the Government desired; but it manifestly would be totally useless to withdraw his Motion in order to allow the Government to fall into the hands of the other Members who had Motions.
§ MR. O'DONNELLsaid, the prospect before them was that they were not to have an opportunity of discussing important questions at all until the clôture was passed, and then the clôture would prevent them from discussing important questions. That prospect was not inviting. At the same time, he admitted that a discussion of this character might, 761 under ordinary circumstances, have been usefully postponed; and, therefore, he regretted that the Prime Minister had initiated the discussion. The statement volunteered by the Prime Minister as to the arrangements for Public Business was far from being creditable to the right hon. Gentleman, and the remarkable confession that fell from his lips was quite unprecedented. It was impossible for them to regard with indifference the accusations made by the sitting Member for Northampton. Of course, he fully recognized that the sitting Member for Northampton was under a deep debt of gratitude to the Premier for having been his champion, and now the hon. Member thought it grateful to become the right hon. Gentleman's champion. It was by no means fair, however, for the hon. Member for Northampton to convert an ordinary discussion on the facilities to be given to private Members into a medium for a Party attack upon the Gentlemen sitting opposite to him. It could not be the case that Members sitting on that side of the House could entertain any such intentions as were imputed to them by the hon. Member for Northampton. What they complained of was that the Government measures were not being brought forward; but that, from day to day, the regular Business of the House was being interfered with. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would not stop to reply to taunts in regard to the conduct of Public Business. His own opinion was that it would not be at all desirable for the right hon. Gentleman to reply to those taunts, he having no reply at hand. They were now asked by the Premier to hurry forward, in a by no means decent fashion, the discussion of the Estimates on the ground of shortness of time, simply because the Premier had wasted the time of the House since the commencement of the Session upon grounds now acknowledged to be utterly fallacious. The right hon. Gentleman said he was not responsible for four nights being taken up by the discussion on the House of Lords. Did the Premier really believe that the discussion on his important Motion—or what promised to be an important Motion, although it came to nothing particular at last—would end in a few minutes after his fiery abjuration to ride rough shod over the decision 762 of the other House of Parliament? Not a minute more than was necessary was spent in the discussion of the right hon. Gentleman's proposition. If it came to the small end to which it did come, the reason was that the discussions showed how groundless were the accusations brought by the right hon. Gentleman. As regarded the accusation against the Conservative Party of wasting time, he was sorry to say that the Conservative Party most unduly abbreviated the discussion on that Motion. It was the action of the late Attorney General for Ireland that prevented the Irish Members from completely discussing the operation of the Land Act. He hoped the small amount of gratitude which the Conservative Party received for that good turn would be remembered by them when they again attempted to curtail the opportunities of Irish Members.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.