§
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding.£80,000, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office Services, the Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government An-Duties and Insurances, and the Collection of the Post Office Revenue.
§ MR. SCHREIBERsaid, that at a previous Sitting the Committee was of opinion that a quarter to 2 in the morning was too late an hour to proceed with a Vote of this importance. Perhaps it would be the opinion of the Committee that at 5 minutes to 2 in the morning it was still less convenient to take the Vote. He did not wish, however, to set himself against the general opinion of the Committee; and if the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General felt equal to offering, at that hour, the explanation which so important a Vote demanded, he would not press the Motion he now made to report Progress.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Schreiber.)
§ MR. ONSLOWappealed to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India (the Marquess of Hartington) whether it would not be advisable now to report Progress on a subject of this great importance? A long explanation would be required from the Postmaster General, for it was a Vote in which the Post Office clerks were greatly interested.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, he was extremely sorry to press the Committee to sit late; but really it would be a convenience to take the Vote to-night. It ought to be remembered that the greater part of the money now asked for was spent last year upon the scheme, then brought into operation, for improving the position of the Post Office clerks and telegraphists throughout the country. He was endeavouring to extend the operation of the scheme as rapidly as possible; he was constantly being asked, by hon. Gentlemen when the scheme was to be put in force in their particular constituencies, and he should be glad to have the money required.
§ MR. ONSLOWasked if there really was any dire necessity to vote the money to-night? Surely a week's delay would not interfere with or thwart the prospects of the Post Office clerks. If such an important Vote had been brought forward in former years at such a late hour he was sure the right hon. Gentleman would have been the first to oppose it.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, he would not press it for a moment; but in the state of Public Business he was not at all certain when they would be able to get into Committee of Supply again. This was simply money that was absolutely required to carry out the scheme which was sanctioned last year; and if there was any point on which information was required, he should be glad to give it at any time.
§ MR. SCHREIBERsaid, he had taken some interest in this matter; but he had not, he must say, a clear idea of the manner in which this £80,000 was to be spent in improved scales of pay in the Post Office. The case of the telegraph clerks had been discussed, but that of the Post Office clerks had not; and he did not think the Committee had any idea—he was sure he had not—of the way in which the money asked for was to be applied. It was because he wished to have a detailed statement of this increased grant that he should adhere to his proposal that the Chairman report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, he could explain in a sentence or two how the money had been spent. Last year, before the new scheme came into operation, the postal clerks and telegraphists had their positions improved. The second and third classes were amalgamated. The present Vote was required to give effect to the new classification, the new system of promotion, and raising of pay.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he should like to elicit, if possible—though it was putting a great strain on the memory of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fawcett)—what was the amount of relief given to the postmasters and letter-carriers of Ireland, who had made repeated complaints of their position. As to the clothing of Irish letter-carriers, the manufacturers of Ireland considered it a grievance that they were obliged to send samples of their goods to London before they could supply the men in Ireland.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, this Vote did not in the slightest degree affect the letter-carriers. The money was wanted for the Post Office clerks—those who sorted the letters. He had received a great many Memorials from the letter-carriers, all of which he had gone through with the greatest care. He had instituted an inquiry, which inquiry had only just been completed. The case of the letter-carriers was not dealt with in these Supplementary Estimates, which only referred to a scheme sanctioned by the Treasury in July last. As to the clothing, he had informed the Lord Mayor of Dublin, in a letter his Lordship had published in the newspapers, that a great deal of improvement had been made in that matter.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONI hope the hon. Member will not think it necessary to press his Motion for reporting Progress. Though I admit the hour is rather late, the Committee is still extremely full, and, so far as I can see, extremely attentive. It is necessary that these Votes should be obtained in a very few days, and I do not think there is much probability of our being able to bring them on at an earlier period than this. The Committee will recollect that this is only an additional opportunity of discussing the Votes. The regular Estimates have yet to be introduced, and if any class of public servants have a grievance it can be discussed when those Estimates are considered. The Postmaster General tells us that these Votes are only required in consequence of a scheme already sanctioned, and as he is willing to offer any explanation that may be demanded I hope we shall be allowed to go on.
§ MR. SCHREIBERsaid, that if they were to wait to take a general discussion on the Post Office Vote until the ordinary Estimates were before them, they would probably have to wait until the middle of next August. He had not the least objection to what the Postmaster General proposed to do, as he thought that was a step in the right direction. It was desirable that there should be increased force and better pay in the Post Office, and also that the better pay should come out of the funds of the Post Office; but he desired to know why the Postmaster General had selected this particular class for improvement? This increased grant was to go to the sorters.
§ MR. FAWCETTAnd telegraphists.
§ MR. SCHREIBERYes; but the first £80,000 to the sorters. He was not aware that any scheme had been placed before the House for this improved remuneration of the sorters. When this Vote appeared on the Paper he was considerably excited with the belief that he had got some money for the poor letter-carriers of London and the Provinces, and he had thought he should have no more occasion to ask questions of the right hon. Gentleman, or make speeches in the House upon that subject. Well, as matters stood, all he could say was that if the sorters were to receive this increased pay the matter could not stop there. The letter-carriers were a harder worked class; they were worse paid, and to a large extent they already did sorters' work. He hoped, therefore, that if this Vote was now passed by the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman would clearly understand that he could not stop there, and that the House and the country would expect him to go on, and out of the increased earnings of his Department—which were, perhaps, the most satisfactory part of the Revenue of the country—find increased pay for these hard worked men the letter-carriers.
§ MR. SCHREIBERNO, Sir.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) had pointed out that they would have another opportunity of discussing these Estimates. Well, he (Mr. O'Connor) would remind the Committee that not only last year, but the year before, the Post Office Estimates were taken so late in the Session that the Committee made a mere pretence at discussion. For the last two years there had been really no discussion of the Post Office Estimates. If they were to go on with the discussion of this Vote now he would ask the Postmaster General if he would say—["Order!"]
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, it seemed to be the opinion of many hon. Members that he would have been more in Order if he had confined himself more closely to the question of reporting Progress.
§ MR. FAWCETThoped that, if he stated that the voting of this money would not, in the slightest degree, prejudice the case of the letter-carriers, the hon. Member (Mr. Schreiber) would allow the Vote to be taken. He (Mr. Fawcett) had not looked at every branch of the Service all at the same moment. He had done what he could to look into the case of the sorters and telegraphists, and directly he had finished with that he had taken in hand the case of the letter carriers, which had proved a long one. He had only just completed his inquiries, and was not at the moment able to make a proposal. The voting of the money now asked for could not in the slightest degree prejudice the case of the letter-carriers—in fact, he should think it would rather strengthen it. The hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Schreiber) had said that the case of the sorters and telegraphists should not have been taken up before that of the letter-carriers; but in this he ventured to differ from the hon. Member. He did not mean to say that the letter-carriers were not hard working; but he could say this—that they were certainly not harder working than the sorters. He would ask the Committee to consider what were the conditions under which the sorters of London carried on their work. Their work was carried on up to 6 or 8 in the evening, many of them lived some miles from the post office in which they were employed, and did not get home until 9 in the evening, and they had to begin work again, in some instances, before 4 o'clock in the morning. This practically went on every day in the year. It seemed to him impossible for any class of men to carry on their work under more onerous conditions. He had felt this, and that was the chief reason why he had taken up the case of the sorters first of all. He hoped, in the interests of the men themselves, and in the interests of the Service, that the Committee would allow the Government to take this Vote.
§ MR. SCHREIBERsaid, he quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the granting of this money would not prejudice the case of the letter-carriers; but his argument was that it established a precedent which the right 143 hon. Gentleman would have to follow out to its logical conclusion. He would withdraw the Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.