| £ | |
| Customs | 40,000 |
| Inland Revenue | 150,000 |
| Post Office | 200,000 |
| Post Office Packet Service | |
| Post Office Telegraphs | 150,000 |
| Total for Revenue Departments | £540,000 |
| Grand Total | £1,617,250 |
§ The Clerk of the House informed the House that Mr. Speaker was unavoidably prevented by indisposition from resuming the Chair during the present sitting of the House:—
§ Whereupon Mr. Playfair, the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, took the Chair as Deputy Speaker.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, he wished to put a question or two to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. There was in this Vote, unless he was mistaken, a large sum of money asked for the Services in Ireland; and, looking at the variety and importance of the Services, hon. Members would be justified, even at this hour, as the opportunity so seldom occurred, of raising some question on the general policy of the Government in Ireland. He did not propose to take that course on the present occasion, and he would confine himself to asking the Chief Secretary certain questions, and if he received a satisfactory answer he would not go any further. The first question related to the operation of the Statute of Edward III. in Ireland. The Committee would remember that four ladies who were arrested under that Statute had been lately released, and the right hon. Gentleman had stated that 10 persons were still in custody under it, three of whom were ladies. He would, ask how long were these ladies to be kept in gaol? No doubt they were persons of minor importance to those who had been released; but it must be borne in mind that they were suffering a far more severe punishment than if they had been arrested as "suspects" under the Coercion 519 Act. When visited in prison, for instance, they had to stand on one side of an iron gate, whilst their friends were on the other, and they were liable to be interrupted by any person passing in and out. They suffered indignities and pains that would be bad enough for men to bear; but it was horrible to think of it when the Committee remembered that they were not men, but women. The right hon. Gentleman had said that these ladies had not been released because they had appealed to a higher Court, and the appeal was still pending. Well, the Irish people had often been told that the Court of Queen's Bench was open to them, and it was asked, "Why don't you appeal to that Court?" Well, they had the extraordinary result now that three ladies, having appealed, were kept in prison, whilst other people had been released, in order that their appeal might be decided upon. He trusted the Chief Secretary would no longer keep these ladies in prison, and that he would be able to say that the seven men also who had been arrested under a Statute 500 years old would be set at liberty. Another question he wished to put to the right hon. Gentleman was with regard to the Act of last year. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had stated that, in regard to all cases of "suspects," not themselves personally suspected of being associated with crime, the persons would be released. Well, the three principal men in custody were set at liberty within 24 hours of that announcement; but the more humble members of the Party to which these three gentlemen belonged were still in custody. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had said that the reason why the three Members were released was because it was supposed their release would conduce to the interests of law and order in Ireland. Well, surely, the same principle should apply to all the "suspects." The principle of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to be that the more speedily the releases were effected the better it would be for law and order; but the releases had proceeded so slowly that six weeks after the right hon. Gentleman's statement he (Mr. Sexton) had asked how many "suspects" were in prison—"suspects" who were not personally associated with crime—and he was told that there were still 91. Well, he had had the Papers 520 searched from the date of his Question down to the present day, and he found that only some 17 had been released during the period that had elapsed. That would leave over 70 of these men still in gaol. What was the reason—what was the common sense or fair play of the conduct of the Government in this matter? Why should they add to the punishment of imprisonment the torture of suspense to the families of these men who were expecting from day to day that they would be let out? They were told that the Lord Lieutenant was considering the cases of these men. Surely it was not necessary to consider the cases so closely after the statement of the Prime Minister that at least 20 or 30 a-day could not be let out. Where there was no fear that the result of releasing a man would be to endanger the peace of a particular district, surely that man should be let free, according to the right hon. Gentleman's original statement. Most of these prisoners were connected with the agricultural operations, and the time had now arrived when the absence of these men from their homes meant almost ruin. Harvest-time had commenced, and in every case where a man was in gaol, and his wife or family were in charge of his farm, these people—namely, the wife and family—were subjected to petty persecutions on the part of the police and others. He had received several letters from "suspects" whose families were suffering in this way. He had received a letter from a "suspect" whose wife was endeavouring to till his farm near Enniskillen, drawing a painful picture of the manner in which the police were trying to intimidate her, and the men working for her. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would assure the House that the "suspects" would be set at liberty without any red tape or circumlocution.
§ MR. TREVELYANsaid, that the occasion was a very proper one upon which to raise this question, although it was hardly one upon which he could answer with any great minuteness. He should be very sorry to allow it to be thought that the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant and his advisers in the matter of releasing the "suspects" could in any sense be influenced by the extremely important object he (Mr. Trevelyan) and his Colleagues had of easing the passage 521 of Supply through, the House. This he said with regard to his answer, not with regard to the hon. Member's observations, because if there was any grievance that could be imagined, it certainly was the grievance of being in prison, and Supply was the time at which to bring grievances forward. With regard to the ladies and others in prison under the Act of Edward III., he had said to-day, at Question time, the method of imprisoning persons in default of bail was used very largely in ordinary cases as well as in agrarian cases. The Lord Lieutenant had considered these cases from time to time, evidently influenced by the length of time the persons had been in prison in comparison with the offence with reference to which their arrest was made. He had given the Lord Lieutenant reasons why he considered there was a distinction between the cases of these three ladies and the other persons who were released, and he still thought it was a legitimate distinction. The ladies had not been imprisoned longer than some of the other persons who were released the other day, and he had no doubt the Lord Lieutenant would carefully consider how they could be dealt with. Since the Protection Act came into operation, there had been 940 arrests which had resulted in 917 persons being placed in gaol, and of those 23 had been twice arrested and 55 had been released. He could not agree that the releases had been slow. It was obvious that, taking the great body of "suspects" as a whole, those who were left to the last would be generally the worst cases. He was not speaking of any particular number, but of the whole number, and the tendency to release would be to grow more slow as time advanced. When the present Irish Executive settled down to work, there were a number of "suspects" in prison—about 365. The principle upon which the Lord Lieutenant had acted in releasing "suspects" had been, above everything, whether they could be released with safety to the country, and to the special districts to which they would return. The Protection Act was passed for the public safety, and it would be worked to the end of its time mainly with regard to the public safety. The hon. Member said that the three Leaders of the movement were at once released when the present Executive commenced its work. He did not hesitate to say that 522 their release was absolutely justified by the fact that no injury to the public safety had resulted; and anybody who had watched the course of public events in Ireland in regard to the agrarian movement must see that there was no reason to keep these Gentlemen in prison, and it was much better for the country and for themselves that they should be making speeches in the House than be in prison. He could not, however, see that of all the "suspects" a great number were only in prison for intimidation; but it must be remembered that agrarian crime had been very much mitigated of late, and at this moment the cases of intimidation were very much larger in proportion to the other agrarian crimes than they were four or five months ago, and that was, in itself, a reason for not letting out those prisoners merely because their offence was intimidation, when the Lord Lieutenant was informed by responsible persons that the presence of these men in their own districts would lead to an increase of intimidation. Even now, although there had been a satisfactory diminution of agrarian offences, there were as many offences in a month as there were in a year during the quiet times from 1872 or 1873 to 1879. That was a very serious state of things; and, in that state of things, he thought the Lord Lieutenant would be very much to blame if he released anybody from prison for any other reason than that they might be let out without danger to the public safety. The Protection Act at this moment was the only effective engine which the Government had for dealing with this state of things in Ireland. Hon. Members, he thought, knew pretty well that it was the strong desire of the Government not to keep men in prison even for a day after they were persuaded that the presence of those men in their own districts would not be a source of danger to those districts; and a general assurance was all that he could give at this moment, and he must not be expected to say more. He was quite convinced that the hon. Member would be satisfied that the Irish Government were honestly endeavouring to do justice to all concerned.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, there was one consideration which he hoped the Lord Lieutenant would keep in mind—namely, that even if men were now in prison under a suspicion of 523 intimidation, if they had been tried and found guilty, they would have been liable to only three months' imprisonment; whereas, in some cases, they had been kept in prison for 12 or 18 months. That was a matter which no one could see the justice of. He wished to put a question to the Financial Secretary with regard to the Shannon navigation, as he could not make out on what principle the amount was set down as a further Vote on Account. He should have thought the whole of the Vote would have been inserted, because it was of the first importance that these navigation works should be pushed on; for during the summer months, and just at present, it was more of consequence than at any other time to complete those works, because the summer floods were frequently the most destructive in the year. The hon. Gentleman had assured him a few days ago, with respect to the course of the Channel, that the Government had used some pressure to induce the Board of Works to push that work on. Under those circumstances, it was extraordinary that the Government should only ask for £500 for this service. On the day when he had asked for this information he saw a letter from a farmer in a district near the Shannon, in which a great deal of damage had been done, and the least the Treasury could do was to push on the works as quickly as possible. It was plain they would not be able to do that with £500, and he was convinced, from what he had himself seen, that £500 would not be sufficient for three weeks' work with all the men employed. He could not make out the system upon which the Government had divided these figures, and he hoped they had some other reserve from which they would be able to push on the works and make them effective.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, he was afraid he could give very little information as to why not more than £500 had been asked for.
§ MR. SEXTONsupposed he had better accept the courteous answer given by the Chief Secretary, and he was satisfied that the three ladies would not be kept in prison any longer than was necessary; and with regard to the prisoners generally, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the condition of the country and the hardship those men suffered through being kept 524 in prison during the harvest - time. While the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to ease the passage of Supply through the House, he himself did not wish to embarrass the Irish Government by opposing Supply.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
§ Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.