COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 12 June 1882)

§ MR. A. GRANT
said, he had proposed to leave out, in page 1, line 6, the word "certificated," and insert "principal." The object of the Amendment was to limit the scope of the Bill to cases of principal teachers. As the Bill stood, it would be seen that it applied to all certificated teachers, and would include those who were in the position of assistants in the public schools. As to those teachers, the Bill went beyond that of the hon. Member for Wigtonshire (Sir Herbert Maxwell), and dealt with a class who, as far as he was aware, had not made any demand for a change in the mode in which they were dealt with at present. However, since he gave Notice of his Amendment he had ascertained the views of several of the more influential school boards in Scotland, and found that they expressed themselves as satisfied with the Bill; and, under these circumstances, he did not feel himself called upon to question their judgment in the matter. He 950 had come to the conclusion not to press his Amendment.

THE CHAIRMAN
Does the hon. Member move his second Amendment?

§ MR. A. GRANT
said, he did not intend to move any of his Amendments.

§ MR. BIGGAR
said, he wished to move to omit the word "full." The clause required that the resolution of a school board for the dismissal of a certificated teacher should have the assent of a majority of the "full" number of the Members of the Board. Under such a provision it would be necessary that there should be a large attendance upon the board before such a thing as a dismissal could take place. He did not think such a thing was necessary. A dismissal could only take place by formal motion, of which due notice had to be given; and under the clause it might be impossible to get a full number of members present. Suppose it were a rule that no Motion in this House should be valid unless more than half the Members voted, it would be found that very rarely during the Session could a decision be come to. For the reasons he had given he would move his Amendment.

§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, he could not accept the Amendment of the hon. Member. Not a single Scotch Member had expressed any wish in this matter, and he had presented Petitions in favour of the Bill as it stood from a number of school boards in Scotland. He was sure the hon. Member would not seek to stand against the unanimous wish of the Scotch Members. That would be quite inconsistent with his attitude in that House.

§ MR. BIGGAR
said, this was no argument at all—the opinion of Scotch Members. They continually saw Irish questions decided by Scotch and English votes. He supposed that during the past two or three days there had not 951 been a single Scotch vote given in favour of the Amendments to the Prevention of Crime Bill brought forward by the Irish Members.

§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, he could not see on what ground the hon. Member urged a change which the Scotch school boards did not desire.

§ MR. BIGGAR
said, the argument the right hon. Gentleman now advanced seemed to him much more substantial than his former argument, and for that reason he would not put the Committee to the trouble of dividing. Of course, seeing that he had asked leave to withdraw his first Amendment, he would not move the second.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL
said, he wished to make an observation. [Cries of" Divide!"] This was a Scotch Bill, and he maintained his right to express his views upon it. When he had requested the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) to withdraw his blocking Notice against the Bill—which the hon. Member very kindly did—he had thought that the measure was very little more than a continuation of the 3rd clause of another hon. Member's Bill. He had now, however, very grave doubts of the changes proposed. In the interests of the teachers themselves it might be desirable that the process of dispensing with their services should not be of a formal and grave nature.

THE CHAIRMAN
The hon. Gentleman does not observe that this subject was passed in a former clause.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL
said, that if the Committee would look at the clause they would see that it contained the words "certificated teachers." In the interests of the junior teachers it might not be necessary to make the process of dispensing with their services of such a formal and grave nature; but they had been told that several of the most important school boards of Scotland had petitioned in favour of the Bill as it stood. He confessed he had not thought it was so; but as he saw sitting opposite several hon. Members who were interested in the subject, and knew that if the Bill required amendment in this respect they would move in the matter, he would not occupy the time 952 of the Committee by going further into the matter.

§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, he wished to add to the clause words to protect the rights of teachers appointed before the passing of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872.