HC Deb 07 June 1882 vol 270 cc365-7
MR. HEALY

I wish, Mr. Speaker, to ask you a Question on a point of Order. I find, in the "Votes and Proceedings" of the House for yesterday, with reference to the remark made last night by my hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon, the following entry:— Mr. O'Kelly, Member for Roscommon, having in the course of the Debate referred to a speech of the Right honourable the Member for Bradford as 'the Right honourable Member's infernal speech,' the Clerk was directed to take down the said words, and the same were taken down accordingly. Whereupon Mr. O'Kelly desired to withdraw the objectionable words, and apologised to the Committee for having used them in the heat of Debate. I contest entirely, Sir, the accuracy of that entry. No Motion to any such effect was carried. The Motion was only made, and was not put or adopted; and I therefore consider that that record should not appear in the Votes, because, in point of fact, no directions were given to the Clerk or anybody else. On the Motion being made, and before it was carried, the hon. Member rose in his place, and apologized for what had taken place. The entry that the Clerk was directed to take down the said words is an entry which I dispute, and, moreover, I allege that the entry is inaccurate. It does not give exactly the words which my hon. Friend used. My Question, Sir, is this—Whether there are any means by which a Member of the House can contest an entry made by the Clerk, if he considers that it is a wrong entry; and, whether we have now any means of rectifying the statement which appears in the Votes?

MR. SPEAKER

With regard to the practice of taking down words, I have to point out to the House that it is not done by a Motion made and debated in the House; but it is done at the discretion of the Speaker or Chairman of Committees as the case may be. If the Speaker or Chairman considers that it appears to be the evident desire of the House that the words should be taken down, he gives directions accordingly, and no Motion is made.

MR. HEALY

Mr. Speaker, is there no means by which we can have an accurate record of what took place, and of the exact words the hon. Member used? The expression my hon. Friend used was, "the same infernal speech," and I wish to ask whether I would be in Order in moving that the record be amended by the insertion of the word "same?" It is of the highest consequence that we should have verbal accuracy in such a matter, as the entire point turns upon it. I think my hon. Friend will bear me out in what I have said that those were the words he used, and I would ask whether we can amend the record to the extent we have stated?

MR. SPEAKER

The entry was founded upon the statement of the Chairman of Committees at the time, and the entry is exactly in pursuance of what the Chairman stated to be the occurrence as it took place. It was read out at the time, and the hon. Member, if he thought proper to object, should have objected at the time.

MR. CALLAN

Sir, I was present at the time—["Order, order !"] The hon. Member resumed his seat.

MR. HEALY

Of course, Sir, you were not present at the time the words were used, and we are not with you, Sir, in stating that the entry was read out at that time. So far as my recollection, and that of hon. Members around me, goes, no such entry was read out, and we were unable to contest it at the time. It is not a matter greatly worth wrangling about, but it is desirable in the future to have accuracy. My question is, for future guidance, whether we can amend the record? It may be this is a small matter, but these are things that will come up in the future, and it is highly desirable that the records shall be accurate.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

Sir, the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) is under a complete misapprehension in saying that the words were not read out at the time, because I read out the words and put the Question, "That those words be reported to the House." Therefore, the words were read out at the time, and if exception was desired to be taken to them, it should have been taken then.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

rose to a point of Order. He desired to be informed whether it was necessary for the Speaker or Chairman formally to take the sense of the House or the Committee on a Motion to takedown words; or whether it was sufficient for the Speaker or Chairman to assume or take his impression of the sense of the House?

MR. SPEAKER

I have already stated to the House that the matter is at the discretion of the Speaker or Chairman, as the case may be.