§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSSir, I take the opportunity, in the absence of my right hon. Friend (Sir Stafford Northcote), who is unavoidably absent to-day, of letting the Prime Minister know that the House is very anxious to be told all that can be communicated to it as to the state of Egypt at the present moment; and I had intended to give Notice of certain Questions to the Government either for to-day or to-morrow, whichever might be most convenient to them. Perhaps, however, the best course would be simply to ask the Prime Minister, in the first instance, if he could give us full information of the exact state of affairs in Egypt; and, if necessary, I will supplement that with other Questions afterwards.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI have been requested by my right hon. Friend to reply to the right hon. Gentleman's Question. In view of the interest which attaches to the present state of affairs in Egypt, and of the contradictory rumours which are current, it will be convenient that I should place before the House shortly, and as far as the interests of the Public Service will allow, a statement of the steps which have been taken by Her Majesty's Government since the adjournment of this House. The French Government have proposed to invite the other Great Powers and the Porte to agree to a Conference to discuss the situation. Her Majesty's Government have assented to a Conference, to be held at Constantinople, the basis of its deliberations being the maintenance of the rights of the Sovereign and of the Khedive; the upholding of the International engagements and the arrangements existing under them; the preservation of the liberties secured by the Firmans of the Sultan, together with the prudent development of Egyptian institutions; and the settlement of the measures necessary to restore order. Her Majesty's Government had already proposed to M. de Freycinet, on his accession to Office on the 6th of February last, to take the other Powers into consultation, and two Circulars in that sense were accordingly addressed to the Powers. Her Majesty's Govern- 1779 ment, therefore, gladly agreed to the present proposal. It is possible that one objection might be raised to this mode of proceeding—namely, that it would cause delay; but we believe, on the contrary, that, under the present circumstances, it will afford the speediest means of arriving at the restoration of order in Egypt. Her Majesty's Government have been in communication with Admiral Sir Beauchamp Seymour as to the protection of the Suez Canal and the security of telegraphic communication with Egypt, and measures have been concerted accordingly. I may, in conclusion, state that Her Majesty's Government have suggested to the Sultan that it is desirable, under the new aspect of affairs, that the flag of the Sovereign should be displayed in Egyptian waters, and that a Turkish man-of-war should convey a Turkish Commissioner to Egypt. I have laid on the Table of the House Papers up to January 7, and the French Government will be at once consulted as to laying on the Table Papers coming up to the present time.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSI think the House will be glad if we can have more information given us on one or two questions. The first is—what measures Her Majesty's Government intend to take in order, in case of necessity, to exact the due fulfilment of their requirements according to the terms of the Joint Note? Secondly, whether, in their opinion, the critical state of affairs in Egypt will really brook the delay with which a Conference is usually attended? Thirdly, I would ask what measures the Government have taken for the security of life and property of British subjects, and the leading personages of the country who have acted on the advice of the Western Powers? And, fourthly, what is the position of the Viceroy himself, who has certainly acted according to the advice of the Western Powers, and who, but for that advice, would probably not have been in his present position? I trust the Papers will come down further than the 7th of January, because we are told that information is to be given to the French Chambers this afternoon. I would ask, also, whether we can now be told what are the terms of the Joint Re-presentation which has been made by the Government to the Sultan?
MR. GLADSTONEThe right hon. Gentleman asks me five Questions which 1780 I have not in my hand. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give them to me. [Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS did so.] The first question is—What measures have the Government taken in order to exact a due fulfilment of their requirements? My hon. Friend near me (Sir Charles W. Dilke), I think, has told the right hon. Gentleman all we can say on that subject. We have determined that the wisest course is to concert measures together with the Powers of Europe. It will be, of course, our duty—particularly will it be the joint work of England and France, who are most concerned—to take the initiative in the meeting of the Powers; and I do not think it would be right that we should, before a Conference has met, announce here the proposals we should make. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree in that. The second Question is with respect to delay. Well, we do not believe that any delay will arise. On the contrary, we believe that the course of affairs will be this:—A Conference will be held at Constantinople, and, as far as we know, or can judge, will consist of the Representatives of the Great Powers. They will all be on the spot, and all will be in immediate communication with the Porte and the Sultan. They will be all on the spot from which any measures which will have to be taken by the Sultan will have to proceed. The next Question is, what measures Her Majesty's Government have taken for the security of life and property? Of course, it has been previously stated that that is the main object with which the ships have proceeded to the harbour of Alexandria. If the right hon. Gentleman means whether any measures have been taken in that respect—whether any force has been landed from those ships—that is not the case; and I would venture to give an opinion that, unless in the immediate expectation of danger, which is not very probable, the Admirals will not land forces—inasmuch as the landing of forces might evidently tend to complicate the political situation—unless it might be a necessity for the protection of life and property, in which case it will be done. The next Question is—What is the position of the Viceroy himself? In respect to that, I can only say that a telegram which I have not seen, but which I have heard of, there being no time to make any copies of it—I 1781 believe it comes from Sir Edward Malet—[Sir CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes.]—this telegram intimates that it is probable that Arabi Pasha, who has completely thrown off the mask, will proceed to depose, or pretend to depose, the actual Khedive, and proclaim Halim Pasha in his place. I consider, without the smallest doubt, we are pledged to the present Khedive, to the placing of whom on the Throne we were parties; and who, I am bound to say, so far as we are able at this distance to form a judgment on events which have been proceeding with rapidity, and without an opportunity of full and mature consideration, has, in our judgment, so far as we can form it, been behaving with perfect honour and much courage. As to the terms of the Joint Representation to the Sultan—that is, I presume, with regard to the vessels of war—[Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS: Yes.]—that, I think, would fall within the declaration made by my hon. Friend near me (Sir Charles W. Dilke)—that we are desirous, at the point which matters have now reached, to lay the Papers on the Table; but the right hon. Gentleman will see that we would not be justified, without communication with the French Government, in laying on the Table the terms of a Joint Representation to the Sultan.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSI have one further Question to ask. The Khedive may be in serious danger, and I wish to ask what steps the Government are prepared to take for his security?
MR. GLADSTONEI hope the right hon. Gentleman will have the goodness to recollect this—all matters with regard to the internal movements in Egypt which are prospective are necessarily attended with a good deal of uncertainty; but that which has been most constantly pressed upon us is the serious danger which would arise to European life and property in case of European intervention—military intervention. I say a European military intervention, in contradistinction to a Turkish military intervention. The apprehension is very strong on the part of the best informed persons that such an intervention would, in all probability, or very probably, stimulate the popular fanaticism, in Cairo in particular; and, therefore, it is not a step on which we could venture without a great deal of consideration. That being so, Sir, of course we have no means 1782 of taking security for the personal safety of the Khedive, excepting on his removal to Alexandria; but I do not think that anything has as yet happened to lead us to believe that his personal danger is a thing that we have mainly, or even seriously, to apprehend, as far as a judgment can be formed on the matter.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHI wish, Sir, to ask one Question. It is stated, I believe, on excellent authority, that earthworks are being thrown up at Alexandria, commanding the entrances to the harbour, so that the ships of war in the harbour would be under the fire of the guns if the earthworks were permitted to be completed? Has the attention of the Admiral been drawn to these earthworks, and do the Government see their way to prevent them from being used in a hostile manner against either French or English ships? I would also ask as to the strength of the Squadron in Egyptian waters, or being sent to Egyptian waters? If I am correctly informed, I understand that the large ironclads cannot enter the harbour of Alexandria. The depth of water is not sufficient for the purpose, and therefore the most powerful ships will have to lie outside. I should, therefore, like to ask what course the Government propose to take in regard to the ships now despatched to Alexandria; and, whether ships will be stationed at Port Said and Suez?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKESir Beauchamp Seymour has no fear whatever with regard to the safety of the Fleet; but he thought it possible that measures might have to be taken for the safety of the European population. It was with a view to the possible measures which might have to be adopted that he asked for more ships, and three more ships were sent from Suda Bay yesterday—the Monarch, and two smaller ships. The Monarch will probably be got into the harbour, certainly by lightening. Vessels drawing 24 feet of water can get into the harbour, and also through the Canal. I believe that it is probable that similar French vessels will also proceed to Alexandria.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHIs it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any notice of the erection of earthworks now being thrown up? I have information on the subject, upon which I can place perfect reliance.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEHer Majesty's Government will be disposed to act on any view of the situation that Sir Beauchamp Seymour should take, as we have full confidence in him, and he has not expressed the slightest apprehension on that subject.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONI have to ask whether, in view of hostilities arising, Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps to protect the mouths of the Suez Canal, and also any British ships which may be in the Canal?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI dealt with that matter, in the first statement which I made, in general terms. I had forgotten to allude to a Question which my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. W. H. Smith) put to me, when he asked whether there were ships at the two ends of the Canal? There are two ships, one English and one French, at each end of the Canal. British and French ships have passed through lately, and at present there is one of each at each end.
§ SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSThe Prime Minister has made two important statements. One is that Arabi Pasha has entirely thrown off the mask; and the second is, that the question of the position of the Khedive is seriously entertained by Her Majesty's Government. I should like to be perfectly assured as to whether the Khedive will be protected, not only in his life and property, but in his position as Khedive?
MR. GLADSTONEYes, Sir; I thought I distinctly conveyed the intention of the Government in that respect, which, in fact, I conceive to be not doubtful at all, but founded upon a very clear duty and engagement. I meant to draw a distinction between the power of giving immediate protection, and the very great danger that might arise from a premature attempt on our part to give it, in a case where, according to the best advice given to us, one of the most probable sources of danger would be a simple European interference. Perhaps I may take this opportunity of taking notice of the Question of the hon. Member (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), who asks me whether there is any truth in the rumour that Indian troops are about to be brought to Suez, with the view of protecting British interests, and asserting the Sovereignty of the Sultan in Egypt? I could not undertake to answer a pros- 1784 pective question as to particular measures to be adopted in a great political contingency of this kind; but, under the circumstances, and as the case as to the Indian troops is peculiar, I may say that no plan of that kind has been adopted, nor is it at present contemplated.
§ SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFI should like to ask the hon. Baronet whether a Turkish Plenipotentiary is to be invited to attend the Conference; and, if so, whether, according to diplomatic precedence, he will preside?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEThe question as to who is to preside has not yet been considered. The first step is to agree upon the Conference. The answer from all the Powers has not yet been received. As to the Turkish Plenipotentiary, that was dealt with in my first statement. I said the invitation was to the four other Great Powers and to the Porte.
§ BARON HENRY DE WORMSIs it to be understood that no measures will be taken to protect the Khedive until such time as it will be possible for the Turkish troops to arrive in Egypt?
MR. GLADSTONEI have never stated that; but I have pointed out that the rendering of immediate protection to the present Khedive is a subject on which it is not possible to give any absolute pledge—first, on account of the distance; secondly, of the danger; and, thirdly, on account of the risk that if he be in personal danger, which we have no positive cause to apprehend, it might be most serious and lead to ruinous consequences by the very fact of its being known that European intervention of that kind was contemplated.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. Baronet tells us the replies of all the Powers have not been received. Will he tell us when the proposal was sent out?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEYesterday.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTwished to know whether the policy—or rather the possibility of the policy—which had just been stated by Her Majesty's Government—namely, the summoning of a Conference of the European Powers, was the policy which the hon. Baronet described to the House on the 15th of May. The statement of the hon. Baronet on May 15 was as follows:— 1785
That the two Powers (England and France) are now in absolute accord as to the steps to be taken in view of future eventualities,and that—The two Governments feel confident that the course agreed upon will meet with the assent of all the other Great Powers and of the Porte.He asked whether Her Majesty's Government would now clearly state whether or not they intended to ask the Sultan, who was the Sovereign of Egypt, to check, by force of arms if necessary, the revolutionary party in that country, and to restore security for life and property? Her Majesty's Government, having tried thus far to shirk their responsibility under cover of a pretended accord with France—["Order!"]—now intended to shirk it still further under the cover of a possible Conference of the Powers. ["Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is not confining himself to a Question.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid, he would ask whether Her Majesty's Government, having endeavoured to carry out a certain policy with regard to Egypt, under the shield of the joint action of England and France, and, having wholly failed, now intended to put off any further dealing with the question until the Conference; and whether, Arabi being now master, they meant to leave the Khedive at his mercy while this problematical Conference was assembling and coming to a decision.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREUpon the same point, perhaps, the hon. Baronet will also answer this Question—whether any despatches or communications from our Diplomatic or Consular Agents in the East have been received confirming the statements that have appeared in almost all the newspapers, that the Porte has, directly or indirectly, supported Arabi Pasha in his course of action?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI do not think it would be to the public advantage to reply to the last Question. [Mr. LABOUCHERE (ironically): Hear, hear!] I see that the hon. Gentleman is inclined to draw an inference from that reply. It would, therefore, be better for me to say a word on that subject, lest any refusal to reply should be misapprehended. Of course, there have been rumours, and we have consequently received despatches in which the matter has been mentioned; but it must not be inferred that Her Majesty's Government 1786 believe the rumours. I wish to give no opinion whatever on that subject at the present time. With regard to the Question of the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett), I will answer the first part of it. The last part of it is ancient history, and was partly dealt with by the answers of the Prime Minister. It is ancient history, because the statement made to-night in regard to the proposed Conference disposes of the greater portion of it. With regard to the statements which were made in Parliament as to the "perfect accord" which existed between the Governments of England and France, I may repeat that these statements at the time were perfectly true. Circumstances, however, subsequently occurred, as shown in the Papers about to be laid on the Table, which, although they in no way changed the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, may have had some effect in other quarters. We have received this day, however, from M. de Freycinet the assurance of the concord of views with which we shall enter into the Conference.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTAre the Government prepared to invite the Sultan to check the revolutionary party by force of arms at once?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEThat is the whole question on which the proposed Conference will meet.
§ MR. M'COANIs it known at the Foreign Office that a gentleman, formerly employed in the Diplomatic Service, and who recently figured prominently in connection with Arabi Pasha, is about to proceed to Egypt to head the revolutionary movement; and whether that gentleman will be permitted thus to aid and abet a rebellion against the Khedive?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI have heard that the gentleman who is probably alluded to in the Question did intend to proceed to Egypt, and certainly his supposed intentions there would be of the most regrettable nature, because, although the Government have no control whatever over his movements, still his presence in Egypt at this moment would have a bad effect; but I believe that gentleman has renounced his intention of going to Egypt.
§ MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYAre any steps to be taken for the safety of the European population in Cairo? It is a long distance from Alexandria, and the 1787 Prime Minister's phrase about Arabi Pasha having entirely thrown off the mask would seem to show that there is great danger.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI cannot add anything to what has been said on that point by the Prime Minister. The attempt to send a force on to Cairo would probably cause the very evil we wish to avert. We have no reason to suppose at the present moment that life and property are in danger at Cairo.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURAre we to understand that until yesterday there was no machinery in motion at all for enforcing the demands of the Western Powers, except the sending of the Meets to Alexandria?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEWhen the Papers are presented the hon. Gentleman will see exactly how the matter stands. It is impossible to make a defence of the Government piecemeal. That defence must rest on the Papers that are to be laid on the Table. We are anxious to present the Papers up to this date; but we must have the consent of the French Government to this being done.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKENo day has been fixed. The first thing is to obtain the consent of the Powers. In general terms, I may say that it is desirable to hurry matters on as much as possible.
§ MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTAre we to understand from the hon. Baronet that the main object of the Conference is to decide about the armed intervention of Turkey in Egypt; and are we to understand from his answer that England and France are not at present in accord on that matter?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKENo, Sir. The hon. Member must not understand that.