HC Deb 11 July 1882 vol 272 cc29-35
MR. JOSEPH COWEN

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the Government has received any report of the inquiry into the riot at Alexandria on June 11th?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

Sir, Her Majesty's Government have received no Report from the Commission of Inquiry into the recent riots at Alexandria, and they are not aware that any such Report exists. I have, however, myself had a conversation with an English barrister who was a member of the Commission, and who has furnished the Foreign Office with notes which will form the basis for further inquiries.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Has the Government received any information that will enable it to make a demand for reparation?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

Sir, the information in our possession is very far from complete. Telegrams have been addressed to various points by the Colonial Office, including Malta and Cyprus, for the collection of information from refugees from Egypt; but the information obtained is in too incomplete a form to enable me to say anything further. The matter will be submitted to the Law Officers on the receipt of details.

SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If there is any objection to laying further Papers relating to Egypt upon the Table at once, at all events down to the meeting of the Conference?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

Sir, further Papers relating to Egypt, and bringing the Correspondence up to the meeting of the Conference, will be laid upon the Table as soon as possible.

SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS

On what day?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

Probably on Thursday or Friday of next week.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

When will the despatch relating to the conversation with M. Challemel-Lacour be laid on the Table?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

I have asked my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary whether he wished it to be laid separately or not on the Table, and he said he did not wish it to be laid separately.

SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS

I beg to remind the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government that he promised that we should be able to have a discussion on the Egyptian Question about the middle of July. We shall require the Papers before that.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

The Egyptian Papers are extremely bulky, and I do not think it would be possible to lay them on the Table before Thursday or Friday next week. We hope they will be distributed to the House on the Saturday following.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

What is the proper place in the Papers for the despatch to which I refer?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

I do not know the exact place, but Lord Granville does not desire any of these Papers to be laid on the Table separately.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

The despatch to which I refer must have been written about the month of February. The Papers that are to be laid on the Table are subsequent to that date.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

I understood my hon. Friend to refer to a despatch correcting the impression which had been formed of the conversation with M. Challemel-Lacour. I now see that he refers to the account of the conversation itself. That, of course, will have to be laid before Parliament separately.

MR. GORST

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, having regard to the interpretation placed by himself on the fifty-fifth section of the twenty-first and twenty-second Victoria, chapter one hundred and six, on the 27th of May 1878, when he stated that the Law had been flatly, plainly, and egregiously broken by the Government, he intends to obtain the "previous" consent of Parliament before advising Her Majesty to employ her Indian forces in Egypt?

MR. GLADSTONE

Sir, the contingency to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers has not arrived. Her Majesty has not been advised to employ her Indian Forces in Egypt. If that contingency should arise, and if the conduct of the Government or my conduct should be in conflict with the opinion of which the hon. and learned Gentleman reminds me, I have no doubt that the hon. and learned Gentleman will be in his place to exercise his right.

MR. ONSLOW

asked if Her Majesty had been advised to get ready her Indian Forces in case of necessity?

[No reply was given.]

MR. JOSEPH COWEN

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If the Government are taking any, and, if so, what, steps to relieve the British subjects that have taken refuge in Malta and Cyprus, and if he is aware of the very superior facilities furnished by the Greek and Italian Governments for the removal of Greek and Italian subjects from Egypt to that furnished by the British Government to British subjects?

MR. GLADSTONE

With respect, Sir, to the refugees in Malta, I gave an answer yesterday, and I do not think I have anything to add to that answer. With respect to the refugees in Cyprus, we have this information. About 2,500 have arrived, mainly natives of Cyprus, many of whom have friends in the island. The monasteries have been largely used for the purpose of housing them; and I believe their condition is pretty satisfactory. Cases of destitution have only quite occasionally been reported. With regard to the facilities furnished by the Greek and Italian Governments, I have seen the statements in the newspapers; but we have no information which would enable us to give an answer.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I wish to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has any information to give the House as to the progress of the bombardment reported to have taken place at Alexandria, and especially if he can state whether any of Her Majesty's ships have received any damage, and whether any casualties have taken place among the crews?

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Sir, the Admiralty have received some telegrams in the course of this day. They came from Mr. Moore, secretary to the Admiral commanding-in-chief, who is on board the telegraph-ship Chiltern, lying off Alexandria. We are not aware whether the telegrams were prepared in communication with the Admiral, but we presume they were not. At 7 o'clock this morning this telegram was received— Alexandria, 7.10 a.m., July 11.—Tuesday, Seven, Morning. Ships have opened fire on the forts. Ships in following positions:—Alexandria, Sultan, Superb, under weigh on a NE by E line from 1,500 to 1,900 yards W½ N Eunostos Lighthouse. Inflexible in Central Pass 3,700 yards N by W of Mexs Fort. Teméraire in Central Pass, 3,500 NNW Mexs. Penelope, Invincible (nag), Monarch, 1,000 to 1,300 yards W by N Mexs. I may here say that Mexs commands the exit and entrance to Alexandria Harbour. The telegram proceeds to say— Unarmoured ships under weigh, working guns to best advantage, annoying Mexs. Return fire from forts weak and ineffective, Hecla has arrived. At 8 oclock this morning we received the following:— 8.40 a.m.—Tuesday, eight, morning. Bombardment continues; heavy explosion in Fort Marsa-el-Kanat; return fire from forts slackening. French Squadron sailed last evening, leaving Bison and Hirondelle off the port. At 11 a.m. we received this— Alexandria, July 11, 11 a.m.—Forts on isthmus comparatively silenced. Moncrieff near Lighthouse and one gun, Fort Ada replying about 10 rounds an hour. Alexandria, Sultan, and Superb at anchor returning fire. Unarmoured ships warmly engaged inside Fort Marabout. Egyptian practice apparently very indifferent. That opinion, of course, must be taken as the opinion of the sender of the telegram. Then, at 1.30 p.m., we received this— 1.30 p.m.—Magazine Fort Ada blown up. We have no information as to the damage to the ships or as to casualties. That information will, no doubt, come in the course of time from the Admiral himself; but we presume that his secretary, who, as I have said, is on the telegraph-ship off Alexandria, will not be aware of any details that may occur among the ships of the Fleet.

MR. W. H. SMITH

With your permission, Sir, I beg to give Notice that I shall repeat the Question at 10 minutes to 7 o'clock this evening, in case there is any further information.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I beg to state that I have had placed in the Newspaper Boom a chart of Alexandria, showing the position of the different places mentioned in these telegrams.

MR. RICHARD

I should like to ask the Prime Minister the following Question. He may be able to answer it now, but if not I shall put it on the Paper. I wish to ask whether there was not an understanding among the Powers represented at the Conference now sitting at Constantinople that no separate action should be taken by any one Power pending the deliberations of the Conference; whether the bombardment of Alexandria by our Fleet is not a violation of such understanding; and whether any communications have been addressed by the Representatives of the other Powers to the British authorities in regard to the bombardment?

MR. GLADSTONE

Sir, there was a general understanding among the members of the Conference at Constantinople to the effect mentioned by my hon. Friend. But from that understanding was expressly, and at the time, excepted the class of cases under which this bombardment would fall. I, therefore, unhesitatingly say that there is no question in this measure of bombardment of any departure from that understanding. I am not aware of any representation having been made by any of the Powers to the effect described by hon. Friend.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

Is the Conference still sitting?

MR. GLADSTONE

Yes, Sir; I make no doubt of that. We are still receiving telegrams, although we have not received any for the last few hours.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

The Conference adjourned for a day or two, in order to receive the replies of the Powers to a proposal that had been made.

MR. ONSLOW

I wish to ask—if the Question can be answered without prejudice to the Public Service—whether the right hon. Gentleman can corroborate the reports that we are making preparation in India for the despatch of troops?

MR. GLADSTONE

I adhere to the general rule, and in conformity with universal practice, and without any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman, I must reply that it would not be compatible with my public duty to answer the Question.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

Until what time has the Conference been adjourned?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

The Conference adjourned some days ago, until the Powers had replied to the proposition put before them. Affirmative replies have been received from, I think, almost all the Powers.

MR. JOSEPH COWEN

Has any communication or remonstrance been received by Her Majesty's Government from the Turkish Government as to the bombardment?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

It would be better for Notice to be given of this Question. Several communications have passed in view of the probable bombardment; but those were previous to the actual opening of fire.

MR. G. W. ELLIOT

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether there is any reservation in the understanding between the Powers at the Conference as to the landing of troops in Egypt?

MR. GLADSTONE

The hon. Member had better give Notice of that Question.

SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS

About these Papers, Sir; the Prime Minister promised that we should have them by the first week in July. Could we, at all events, have the Instructions which were given to our Plenipotentiary at the Conference, so that we may know what ground we are standing upon?

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

I very much doubt whether it will be possible to give the later and more detailed Instructions to our Plenipotentiary while the Conference is sitting. They will not be, in fact, included in the Papers which I have promised. They are of a character which will render it impossible to lay them on the Table while the Conference is sitting.

SIR WILFRID LAWSON

The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Assheton Cross) has alluded to a promise given by the Government at the beginning of this month—namely, that a discussion may be taken on the Egyptian matter. It appears that all parties are satisfied—at least the two Front Benches are satisfied—but there is a Party which is not satisfied. I want to know what opportunity there will be for discussing the Egyptian matter, and at what time the Government will see fit to allow the House to discuss it?

MR. GLADSTONE

I beg to remind my hon. Friend of the only specific promise which it was my duty to give. It was that about the middle of July—in other words next week—Her Majesty's Government will think it their duty, even if not obliged by necessity, to submit the question of Supply. That is apart from any general discussion founded on any Motion expressing the opinion of a largo body in the House. As regards an opportunity of discussing that question, that answer is the answer I have already given.

SIR E. ASSHETON CROSS

How does the right hon. Gentleman expect that we can discuss the question before we have the Papers?

MR. GLADSTONE

I have never given any pledge with regard to any Papers of a later date than the end of May, and the promise given by my hon. Friend the Under Secretary as regards new Papers is distinct and independent from that which I gave.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Is it not a fact that it was said there might be a discussion in the middle of July on the general Egyptian policy of the Government? If so, we shall require, before that, some time to read the Papers.

MR. GLADSTONE

I have nothing to add, Sir, to what I have already stated. The Papers which I promised take us down to the end of May, and these Papers I expected to be in the hands of the House in the first week of July. I believe that they are now in the hands of Members. There can be a discussion upon them, and I said we should propose Supply about the time I have mentioned.