HC Deb 15 August 1882 vol 273 cc1847-52

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Shaw Lefevre.)


said, he trusted this was the last time when the venerable words "Ancient Monuments Bill" would be in the Paper. He congratulated his hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) on his great success, won by such perseverance and such tact. For years he had fought by the side of his hon. Friend. There had been a great deal of misunderstanding about his hon. Friend sand the present Bill. He thought the most ridiculous of all arguments raised against it was that it was a destructive measure, whereas it was absolutely the most conservative measure ever brought before Parliament. It would preserve monuments of immense value from the effects of the wilful ignorance and selfishness of those who ought to be their guardians, and create the most beneficent of entails. The Bill had made its way slowly, but surely, and he was certain that when it was put in the Statute Book it would be hailed with satisfaction.

Motion agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to.

Clause 2 (Power to appoint Commissioners of Works guardians of ancient monuments).


said, he had to move a purely formal Amendment at the end of this clause, which, through inadvertence, had not been placed upon the Paper. The clause provided that the expressions "maintain" and "maintenance" should include acts necessary for repairing a monument or protecting it from decay or injury; and he proposed to add, at the end of the clause, a further provision that the cost of maintenance should be provided by Parliament, subject to the approval of the Treasury.

Amendment proposed, At the end of Clause to add the words "The cost of maintenance shall, subject to the approval of Her Majesty's Treasury, be paid from moneys to be provided by Parliament."—(Mr. Shaw Lefevre.)

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Power of Commissioners to purchase ancient monuments) agreed to.

Clause 4 (Power to give, devise, or bequeath ancient monuments to the Commissioners) agreed to.

Clause 5 (Duty of Commissioners to cause ancient monuments to be inspected).

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."


said, he should have several Amendments to propose, which were rendered necessary in consequence of the decision which had been come to by his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government to rest the responsibility upon the Treasury rather than the Commissioners of Works. He proposed to bring up these Amendments when the clauses of the Bill had been gone through, in the shape of a new clause in substitution of Clause 5.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause struck out.

Clause 6 (Penalty for injury to ancient monuments) agreed to.

Clause 7 (Recovery of penalties) agreed to.

Clause 8 (Description of Commissioners of Works, and law as to disposition in their favour).


moved, in line 7, to leave out "England," and insert "Great Britain." The object was to define that the expression "the Commissioners of Works" should mean the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works and Public Buildings in Great Britain, and the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 7, leave out "England," and insert "Great Britain."—[Mr. Shaw Lefevre.)

Question, "That the word 'England' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Words inserted.

On the Motion of Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, Amendment made, in lines 8 and 9, by leaving out "as respects Scotland the Board of Trustees for Manufactures in Scotland;" in line 12, by leaving out from "England" to "Scotland" in line 13, both inclusive, and inserting "Great Britain;" and at the end of the Clause, by inserting, as a separate paragraph— In the case of an ancient monument in Scotland, a duplicate of any report made by any inspector under this Act to the Commissioners of Works shall he forwarded to the Board of Trustees for Manufactures in Scotland, and it shall be the duty of the Commissioners of Works, in relation to any such monument, to take into consideration any representations which may be made to them by the said Board of Trustees for Manufactures.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 (Description of owners for purposes of Act).

On the Motion of Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, Amendment made, in page 4, line 22, by inserting— And where the owner of any land, being the site of an ancient monument, is a tenant for life or in tail, or heir of entail in possession in Scotland, having a power of sale over such land, either under the terms of a will or settlement or under an Act of Parliament, any deed executed by such owner in respect of the land, being such site as aforesaid, of which he is so tenant for life or in tail, shall bind every succeeding owner of any estate or interest in the land.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 (Definitions) agreed to.


moved a new clause in substitution of Clause 5, vesting the appointment of an Inspector of Ancient Monuments in the Lords of the Treasury instead of the Commissioners of Works.

Clause read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.


begged to move, in page 4, after Clause 9, to add the following Clause:—

(Additions to Schedule by Order in Council.)

Her Majesty may from time to time, by Order in Council, declare that any monument of a like character to the monuments described in the Schedule hereto, shall be deemed to be an ancient monument to which this Act applies, and there upon this Act shall apply to such monument in the same manner in all respects as if it had been described in the Schedule hereto. An Order in Council under this Section shall not come into force until it has lain for forty days before both Houses of Parliament during the Session of Parliament. The Schedule was taken from the Act which his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Beresford Hope) had alluded to. The Schedule, however, though carefully prepared, was never regarded as complete, and he believed it was generally conceded that there ought to be power given by the Bill to enable the authorities to deal with other monuments than those specified in the Schedule. He understood that Her Majesty's Government were good enough to accept the clause.

New Clause (Addition to Schedule by Order in Council,)—(Sir John Lubbock,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


said, he quite approved of the clause, and should be glad to add it to the Bill. The clause, however, as it stood, applied only to monuments of "a like character" to the monuments described in the Schedule; and, of course, it might be desirable hereafter to make provision for the preservation of monuments of a more recent date. At present it would only refer to the monuments mentioned in the Bill; and if the principle was hereafter to be extended, perhaps it would be better that it should form the subject of fresh legislation.


said, that, by a clause which had already been passed, they had provided that the ancient monuments to which the Act applied should be the monuments specified in the Schedule; and at the end of Clause 10 they had the Schedule referred to. It was now proposed to make additions to the Schedule, and he apprehended that it would be irregular to do that without altering Clause 10.


said, he thought the hon. and learned Member was mistaken. The clause now proposed seemed to him perfectly regular.


would appeal to the Chairman, as a point of Order, whether the clause ought not to follow Clause 10 instead of Clause 9?


said, the clause was quite regular as proposed; but if the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) consented to propose its insertion after Clause 10 he could do so.


said, he would defer to the opinion of the Government upon the matter.


remarked that Clause 10 was simply a definition clause, and the clause now before the Committee would more properly come in after Clause 9.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.



said, the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce) had given Notice of an Amendment, but was not in his place to propose it. He would, therefore, move the Amendment of which his hon. Friend had given Notice—namely, to include in the Schedule the stone known as "Cross Macduff, Fifeshire." At the same time, while making that Motion, he confessed that, although he had been born and bred in Fifeshire, he knew nothing about the Cross Macduff; but although that was so, he thought it would be hard that Fifeshire should not have her ancient monuments preserved.

Amendment proposed, in page 6, after line 14, add, "The stone known as Cross Macduff, Fifeshire."—(Sir George Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."


said, the only objection he had to the Amendment was that the description contained in it was insufficient. It contained no definition of the parish.


said, he was sorry that he was unacquainted with the parish in which Cross Macduff was situated; and, under the circumstances, he would not press the Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.


moved, in the Schedule, page 7, line 8, insert— The earthern and stone inclosure known as Grianan of Aileach, Donegal County, Burt parish, West Innishowen barony. He moved the Amendment in the absence of the hon. Member for the County of Donegal (Mr. Lea).

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered.


hoped he was not asking too much when he requested the House to read the Bill a third time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," — (Mr. Shaw Lefevre,) — put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.