CONSIDERATION. (Hansard, 14 August 1882)

§ Mr. MAGNIAC
said, he was sorry to take up the time of the House at this 1784 late hour; but the proceedings with regard to the Bill under notice had been so unsatisfactory that he felt bound to make a few remarks at that stage. In the first place, the form of the Bill was most objectionable. The Bill had been brought in under the guise of a Money Bill; but it no more came within the definition of a Money Bill than the Bills they had been discussing that night. There were clauses referring to the ordinary transactions of trade, which ought to have had the fullest discussion either in the House or out; but they had not received that discussion—time had not permitted. He understood there was no precise definition of a Money Bill; but if the practice was to be followed of disposing of Bills in this way, because they were Money Bills, the sooner the point was decided the better. It was an abuse of the Forms of the House to bring in a Bill in the form in which this had been presented. The Bill contained many very important provisions, and it was introduced and passed through its stages a few minutes past 3 one morning. His hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. R. N. Fowler) was the only commercial man in the House at the time; and he attempted, to the best of his ability, which was not small, to get some information with regard to the Bill; but information abstracted at half-past 3 o'clock in the morning was not of a very satisfactory character. In consequence of the form in which the Bill was disguised and the perfunctory manner in which it had been brought before the House, no one connected with the commercial community really appreciated it to the fullest extent, fie (Mr. Magniac) could not profess to be acquainted with all the technicalities involved in the Bill, and very important points had escaped his notice. Indeed, it was not until Thursday night that the persons greatly concerned by the Bill became aware of what was in store for them. The Warehousing Clauses of the Bill were highly technical, and if they had been passed a most unjust burden would have been cast upon a large class of the commercial community, a class upon whom depended what, he did not hesitate to assert, was the backbone and foundation of British trade and commerce. The commerce of the world was being competed for by every nation in 1785 the Eastern and Western hemispheres, and it had been an earnest desire to make England the emporium of the world. If the Warehousing Clauses of the Bill had been passed, a very considerable blow would have been given to the efforts in that direction. Fortunately, the point was discovered in time to cause the Government to alter the Bill. The commercial community had just ground to complain that Bills were introduced of so one-sided a character, that it was evident it was only the interest of the Department in the matter of trouble that was considered. It was evident these Bills would have to be much more carefully watched than hitherto; in fact, in future, he should certainly prevent their passing without they received the fullest discussion. The Prime Minister had said that Obstruction might be used for the enlightenment of the House. He (Mr. Magniac) was determined that if any instances of this kind occurred again, he should resort to Obstruction for the enlightenment of the House. He believed that in that course he would be supported by all the hon. Gentlemen who represented commercial communities, and who were acquainted with the circumstances and requirements of trade. The traders of the country ought to receive support from the Government instead of being confronted by them with obstruction and difficulty. He believed that if three or four men of business had been asked to meet the hon. Member (Mr. Courtney) and his Advisers, all the difficulties in the matter might have been settled in two hours. There were other extraordinary clauses in the Bill besides the Warehousing Clauses; for instance, there were the clauses providing that if a man could not be convicted of one offence he must be convicted of others. These were the Gun Clauses, and they provided that if a man could not be convicted of poaching he might be convicted of carrying a gun. He did not know how far that was within the principles of the present law; but he did not think any man ought to be punished for anything with which he was not charged. The 19th clause, which applied to the £140,000 which was the amount of the accumulated bonuses in the Bank of England, was also a most extraordinary one, and then again there was a clause making up a deficiency on the Friendly Societies Ac- 1786 count. He believed £1,250,000 was the amount which was to be provided in the Bill. The voting of such an amount as that needed some more consideration than a perfunctory conversation between a few hon. Gentlemen at half-past 3 o'clock in the morning. Further, he had not heard any reason why the holders of the 2½ per cent Stocks were to have their dividends paid quarterly, and the holders of other Stock not.

§ MR. R. N. FOWLER
said, he had no intention of detaining the House. He rose simply to thank his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Magniac), in whose speech he thoroughly concurred, for the great pains he had taken in regard to this Bill. It was a measure which affected very disadvantageously a large class of warehousemen carrying on business in the City of London, and he was glad that the hon. Member had explained certain matters which required to be set right.

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, he did not think it was necessary, at that hour of the night, that there should be a prolonged discussion upon the Amendments which had been introduced into the Bill. He had distinctly understood that the Amendments on all the points which had been in dispute had been accepted.

§ MR. MAGNIAC
said, that his remarks were applied principally to the Warehousing Clauses.

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, that practical difficulties had been found to exist in the Warehousing Clauses as they originally stood; but they were discovered while the Bill was before the House, and had been amended. He did not think that much time had been lost by the manner in which the Bill had been introduced, and all the points which the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Magniac) had raised as to the Warehousing Clauses would be satisfactorily settled by the Amendments which he was prepared to move. The Bill was an Omnibus Bill; and the questions raised by the other clauses had been discussed, in former years. It was only intended to apply to Friendly Societies' legislation, which had been already passed, and to make provision for the allocation of the standing Debt of the Bank of England. His hon. Friend the Member for Bedford had entered into various calculations in regard to the quarterly payments of 2½ per cent Stock; but the matter was one which had been discussed by the House 1787 in former years, and it would involve a considerable waste of time to enter into every matter of detail again. Being an Omnibus Bill, the measure included a real variety of provisions which could only be discussed in a very discursive manner. The Warehousing Clauses had excited some alarm; but their effect had been much exaggerated, and the alarm had no real foundation. He hoped his hon. Friend would content himself with the remarks he had made, and would not further arrest the progress of the Bill.

§ MR. THOROLD ROGERS
said, that what had happened was really this—A deputation of gentlemen representing very large interests had waited upon the Treasury, and the Treasury explained why a considerable portion of these new clauses had been pitch forked into an Omnibus Bill at so late a period of the Session that it was impossible to discuss them. Persons of great business acute-ness had, however, been able to detect a great blot in the Bill, by which serious consequences might have been brought about; and, by making representations to the Government, they had been able to induce the Secretary to the Treasury to extract most of the mischief these particular clauses originally contained. But, at the present moment, the House did not know how much more mischief might be contained in the Bill; and, if further mischief was discovered after the Bill became law, he hoped the House would remember that Her Majesty's Government were alone to blame for it.

§ MR. DILLWYN
said, he could not allow one remark of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Courtney) to go unanswered. The hon. Gentleman said that the blot in the Bill was discovered while the Bill was before the House. He (Mr. Dillwyn) presumed that it was discovered in the Lobby, and ho, for one, very strongly objected to what he might term "Lobby legislation." There were many most unsatisfactory clauses in the Bill as it was originally introduced; but it would appear that the Government had effected a compromise with their opponents in the Lobby, instead of discussing and settling them in a proper way in the House. He ventured to enter a strong protest against the principle laid down by his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury, that it was a justifiable or 1788 advisable practice to adopt, in regard to the clauses of any Bill, to settle them outside the House. He was of opinion that all Bills that passed that House ought to be settled on the floor of the House.

§ MR. WARTON
said, he tried to attend to the Business of the House as carefully as he could, and he gave as regular an attendance as any hon. Member; but he confessed that he had been unable to understand the conduct of the Treasury Bench in regard to this Bill, or to fathom the precise bearing of some of its provisions. He had gone away originally with the impression that the Bill was merely a Bill that dealt with ordinary matters, and he had therefore been induced to view its provisions without the slightest suspicion. From what had occurred since, however, he was of opinion that such a Bill ought not to be introduced without a full explanation, and that it ought not to be passed until it had received full discussion.

§ MR. COURTNEY
said, he would now, with the permission of the House, move that the Bill be read a third time.

§ MR. MAGNIAC
said, he did not intend to oppose the third reading; and, as regarded the matter of which he had complained, he could only say he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Courtney) would never do it again.