HC Deb 11 August 1882 vol 273 cc1498-510

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [8th August] on New Standing Order, to follow Standing Order 173:— That, in the case of any Bill promoted by a Municipal Corporation or Local Board, Improvement Commissioners, Town Commissioners, or other local authority or public body having powers of local government or rating, the Committee on the Bill shall consider the Clauses of the Bill with reference to the following matters:—

  1. (a.) Whether the Bill gives powers relating to Police or Sanitary Regulations in conflict with or excess of the provisions or powers of the general law;
  2. (b.) Whether the Bill gives powers which may be obtained by means of Bye-laws made subject to the restrictions of General Acts already existing;
  3. (c.) Whether the Bill assigns a period for repayment of any loan under the Bill exceeding the term of sixty years, which term the Committee shall not in any case allow to be exceeded, or any period disproportionate to the duration of the works to be executed or other objects of the loan;
  4. (d.) Whether the Bill gives borrowing powers for purposes for which such powers already exist or may be obtained under General Acts, without subjecting the exercise of the powers under the Bill to approval from time to time by the proper Government Department;
And the Committee shall report specially to the House—

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

MR. SERJEANT SIMON

said, that before the question was disposed of he felt it his duty to say a few words—not that he expected, in the present condition of Public Business, or in the present scanty attendance of Members, that there were many present who took an interest in the subject, but because he thought he was bound, on behalf of those whom he represented, to point out to the House that this proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Hants (Mr. Sclater-Booth), who was probably not responsible for it, except as the mouthpiece of the Select Committee over which he had presided, and by whom the recommendation was made, went to the very root of local self-government. The whole tendency of recent legislation had been to place in the hands of the local authorities certain powers which Parliament considered they ought to be entrusted with, for carrying on the practical business of local municipal self-government, which powers such local authorities ought to be able to exercise without fear or hindrance. It was idle for Parliament to say they would trust the Corporations and local bodies of the country to regulate their local affairs, of which they were necessarily the best judges, and tell them at the same time that they would impose restrictions upon them, by the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, which would place their action at the discretion of a central authority. When they spoke of the Local Government Board, moreover, they did not mean the right hon. Gentleman at the head of that Board, but the officials in the Office, who supervised in detail, and often opposed, according to their individual judgment and opinion, the wishes and interests of the Local Boards. He (Mr. Serjeant Simon) protested against this system of centralization. In regard to loans, it was provided by the proposed Standing Order that the term for repayment should in no case be allowed to exceed 60 years. Hitherto no attempt had ever been made to fix one unvarying limit for the repayment of loans. There were many works which Local Boards undertook, from the necessities of the case, and often under circumstances which left them no choice—namely, under the compulsion of the Local Government Board itself. They were obliged to un- dertake many works and improvements for the public health; and they were compelled to lay out considerable sums of money for such purposes. The money was not raised of their own free will, but out of the necessities of the case, and under the controlling action of the Local Government Board. He did not complain of this, because it was essential that the health of the localities should be secured, and proper sanitary regulations provided; but what he did complain of was that when the Local Government Board had compelled the local authorities to borrow money in order to defray the expense, they should then, by a new Standing Order of that House, limit the period for repayment. He thought it would be very hard indeed upon the existing ratepayers that they should be called upon to bear the entire burden of improvements, from which those who came after them were to derive the principal benefit. He would take the case of one of these municipal boroughs—the borough which he had the honour to represent (Dewsbury). The local authorities in that borough were obliged, some years ago, to purchase gas-works, and, in order to carry them on properly, and to give the ratepayers the full advantage of them, they had to incur a debt of no less than £200,000. Upon that sum they had been paying interest. He (Mr. Serjeant Simon) contended that the municipal authorities had no alternative but to incur the debt. They were bound to see that this district was properly lighted; the existing Companies were lighting it most imperfectly, and were charging the inhabitants exceptionally high prices. The authorities, having purchased the rights of the Gas Companies, laid out considerable sums of money in extending the works; and the result, as he had already stated, was that they had borrowed money to the extent of £200,000—a somewhat heavy sum for such a community. The ratepayers were therefore required to pay a considerable sum in the shape of interest, and they now found themselves in competition with the Electric Lighting Companies. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Whitley) appeared to be amused; but it was no smiling matter for the ratepayers. It was a great hardship upon the district that it should be compelled, within a given time, to repay the capital which it had been obliged to raise under circumstances which had left them no option, and suddenly to find their efforts superseded by a new competing invention, while the debt remained, and they had still principal and interest to repay. He also strongly objected to another part of this Order—namely, that part of it which provided at the end that, after a Select Committee had inquired into any Bill promoted by a Municipal Corporation, Local Board, Improvement Commissioners, Town Commissioners, or other local authority, or public body, having powers of local government or rating, the Committee should report specially to the House in what manner the clauses bad been dealt with; whether any Report from any Government Department relative to the Bill had been referred to the Committee; if so, in what manner the recommendations in such Report bad been dealt with by the Committee; and any other circumstances which, in the opinion of the Committee, it was desirable that the House should be informed. They all knew very well what that meant. The Committee were to report to the House; but the real persons who would sit in judgment upon the finding of the Committee would not be the House of Commons, but the Local Government Board. He was of opinion that if they were to have local self-government, that local self-government should be left to take care of itself, and should not be constantly subjected to the meddling interference of the Local Government Board. The Corporations and local authorities of the country did not require that the Department represented by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Dodson) should sit over them to watch their acts, and tell them how far the locality required improvement, and what their necessities demanded. According to this Standing Order, the Local Government Board, and not the ratepayers, were the best judges of the requirements of a district; and their supervision would afford the best check against extravagance on the part of local bodies. He would not detain the House longer. He was sorry that he had been compelled to make these observations to the House; but he had felt that he had a public duty to discharge. At the same time, he made no complaint of the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman oppo- site (Mr. Sclater-Booth) in moving these alterations of the Standing Orders, because he was perfectly aware that the right hon. Gentleman was simply representing the views of the Select Committee.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

said, he thought that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Serjeant Simon) was under a misapprehension as to the meaning of the paragraphs he had quoted. The object of the Standing Order was not in the least degree to centralize local government, but to secure that the House should, have full information of the action of Committees upstairs. The House had imposed upon the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board certain duties in reference to the examination of Private Bills, and among those duties it was incumbent upon them to report whether any Private Bill proposed to proceed in any way antagonistic to the public interests. The Reports sent in by these Public Departments were sent up to the Select Committees, who worked with great zeal upstairs; and wherever there were opposed clauses, those clauses were thoroughly threshed out by counsel before the Committee. But it might happen that some of the clauses of a Private Bill were not opposed, and in that case they were passed without the House having an opportunity of knowing what was contained in them, and the House were called upon to act to the best of their ability with no information or knowledge before them as to what was required for the public interests. The object of the requirement to which his hon. Friend had called attention was to secure that the House should not be kept in ignorance of the nature of the contents of these Private Bills. His hon. and learned Friend also objected to the limitation of the period for the repayment of a loan to 60 years. The only point which could arise in that matter was whether 60 years was too short a time for that purpose or not. He would take the case which his hon. and learned Friend bad himself brought under the notice of the House—the case of the purchase and extension of gas-works, which his hon. and learned Friend stated might in the course of a few years come into competition with a new source of illumination in the shape of electric lighting. That competition might or might not become serious; but if it did, surely it would be very wrong for the Legislature to require the ratepayers of a district for the next 100 years to pay for an instrument which was no longer necessary, having been got rid of by the competition of improved appliances. A hundred years would be manifestly too long to fix as the period over which the repayment of the loan should be extended. Surely it ought to be sufficient to require any loan raised for these purposes to be repaid within 60 years. The recommendations of the Select Committee had been considered with great care, and had received the approval both of the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board. After giving anxious consideration to them in the view of the Amendments which had been placed on the Paper, he had come to the conclusion that, with one or two alterations, the House would do well to adopt them. They would place the House in the possession of most useful information in regard to the provisions of Private Bills promoted by local authorities and public bodies. He begged to move in the first line of the proposed new Standing Order, after the words "Bill promoted by," the insertion of the words "or conferring powers on."

Amendment proposed, after the words "Bill presented by," to insert the words "or conferring powers on."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Section (a), after "conflict with," to insert the words "deviation from."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, at end, to add, "And the Report of the Committee shall be printed and shall be circulated with the Votes."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Order be a Standing Order of the House."

MR. H. H. FOWLER

said, he had had the honour of acting as a Member of the Committee over which the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Sclater-Booth) had presided, and which had made these recommendations to the House. He only rose, however, for the purpose of saying that if he thought the Standing Order interfered in any way with the principles of local self-government he should oppose it as strongly as the hon. and learned Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Serjeant Simon) did; but he could not place such a construction upon it. The whole of the Standing Order proceeded upon the assumption that the local authorities were applying to Parliament for certain powers in connection with police and sanitary purposes, which they did not at present possess. There was no interference with any existing power at all; but the Standing Order simply laid down regulations which were to apply when the local authorities came to Parliament for extensive police and sanitary powers in addition to those which they at present possessed. He saw nothing in the Standing Order which was in any way objectionable. When public bodies or local authorities asked for powers that were in excess of the general law, such powers ought only to be sanctioned by the Imperial Parliament under a general law. There ought not to be one law for Blackburn, another for Manchester, and another for Liverpool; and in going through the Bills which had been submitted to them, the Select Committee had struck out some hundreds of clauses which would have been almost grotesque in their social tyranny if they had been allowed to pass. He contended that Private Bill legislation on these subjects ought to be placed under proper checks and restraints. In reference to the other point which had been raised by the hon. and learned Member for Dewsbury—namely, the repayment of loans, he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) certainly thought that 60 years was a period quite long enough to impose a burden upon any community. Was his hon. and learned Friend aware that a sinking fund of 1 per cent would be sufficient to pay off a debt in 60 years? Consequently there was no justification for burdening ratepayers who wished to borrow money for sanitary and other improvements with a lengthened period of prospective liability. A hundred years were far too long. The evil the House ought to keep in view was the desirability of preventing extravagance of the worst possible form. He would not trouble the House further except to remind hon. Members that these recommendations were the result of seven weeks' careful investigation by the Select Committee upstairs.

MR. HOPWOOD

said, he had no intention of opposing the Standing Order; he only desired, with the indulgence of the House, to express his gratification that the task imposed upon the Select Committee had been discharged so effectually by the Members of the Committee and by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Sclater-Booth), who presided over its deliberations. It was at his (Mr. Hopwood's) instance that the attention of the House had been called to the nature of the provisions contained in some of these Private Bills; and he was glad to find that the Committee charged with the duty of inspecting the various Bills had so satisfactorily performed their duty. By the passing of this Standing Order something like uniformity would be secured in regard to the future treatment of measures of this kind; and, therefore, the Committee had rendered good service. So far as he was personally concerned, the action he had taken in the matter was amply justified by the result; and he begged to express his acknowledgments to the Committee for the recommendations they had made.

MR. J. G. HUBBARD

said, he thought that if there was one feature in these recommendations which ought to commend them to the acceptance of the House, it was the very one which the hon. and learned Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Serjeant Simon) had so vehemently anathematized. No greater danger attended the recent action of the Legislature in regard to the indebtedness of local bodies than the practice it had encouraged of inducing Corporations and other municipal authorities to raise large loans for sanitary and police purposes, spreading the repayment over a long series of years. What they had to deal with now was the dangerous system of launching Corporations and local districts into debt for the advantage of private interests. When it was found that the repayment of these loans was made to extend, not over a period 20, 80, or 40 years, but over 50, 60, and—in the case of Bradford, even 100 years—he thought it was high time that a rule should be laid down which in the future would prevent this destructive process of indebtedness. The hon. and learned Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Serjeant Simon) was anxious to relieve those whom he represented, and did not wish that the present generation should he too heavily burdened; but he (Mr. Hubbard) thought it was the duty of the House to think of those who came after them, and to have some regard to the interests of posterity. He trusted that the House would adopt the recommendations which had been made to them by the Select Committee.

Question put, and agreed to. Ordered, That, in the case of any Bill promoted by or conferring powers on a Municipal Corporation or Local Board, Improvement Commissioners, Town Commissioners, or other local authority or public body having powers of local government or rating, the Committee on the Bill shall consider the Clauses of the Bill with reference to the following matters:

  1. (a.) Whether the Bill gives powers relating to Police or Sanitary Regulations in conflict with, deviation from, or excess of, the provisions or powers of the general law;
  2. (b.) Whether the Bill gives powers which may be obtained by means of Bye-laws made subject to the restrictions of General Acts already existing;
  3. (c.) Whether the Bill assigns a period for repayment of any loan under the Bill exceeding the term of sixty years, which term the Committee shall not in any case allow to be exceeded, or any period disproportionate to the duration of the works to be executed or other objects of the loan;
  4. (d.) Whether the Bill gives borrowing powers for purposes for which such powers already exist or may be obtained under General Acts, without subjecting the exercise of the powers under the Bill to approval from time to time by the proper Government Department.
And the Committee shall report specially to the House— And the Report of the Committee shall be printed and shall be circulated with the Votes. Ordered, That the said Order be a Standing Order of the House.

Standing Order 3 read.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

said, there were several Amendments he desired to propose in the existing Standing Orders which were simply of a technical character, with the exception of a new Standing Order to follow Standing Order 158, the object of which he would explain when he reached it. He would move now, in Standing Order 3, page 9, line 11, after "arrangements," insert "or to dissolve any Company."

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 11, after the word "arrangements," to insert the words "or to dissolve any Company."—(Mr, Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Standing Order 13 read, and amended, in page 11, line 5, by leaving out the words "the said," and inserting the word "any,"—(Mr. Lyon Playfair,)—instead thereof.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

said, he would next move, as a new Standing Order to follow Standing Order 29, the Motion which appeared on the Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Essex (Colonel Makins).

New Standing Order, to follow Standing Order 29:—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That on or before the 30th day of November a copy of so much of the said plans and sections as relates to the district of any urban sanitary authority in England or Ireland, in or through which the work is intended to he made, maintained, varied, extended, or enlarged, or in which any lands or houses intended to be taken are situate, together with a copy of so much of the book of reference as relates to that district, shall be deposited with the clerk of that sanitary authority."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That the said Order be a Standing Order of the House," put, and agreed to.

Standing Order 33 read.

Amendment proposed, In page 16, line 13, after the word "relate," to insert the words "and of every Bill whereby any powers, rights, duties, capacities, liabilities, or obligations are sought to be conferred or imposed on any Local Authority in England or Wales in respect of any matter within the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

New Standing Order, to follow Standing Order 60:— Ordered, That a copy of every Bill brought from the House of Lords, whereby application is made by or on behalf of any Municipal Corporation, Local Board, Improvement Commissioners, or other Local Authority in England or Wales, for power in respect of any purpose to which the several Acts specified in Part I. of the Schedule to The Local Government Board Act, 1871, relate, and Of every Bill whereby any powers, rights, duties, capacities, liabilities, or obligations are sought to be conferred or imposed on any Local Authority in England or Wales in respect of any matter within the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board, and of every Bill relating to Turnpike Roads or Trusts, Highways, or Bridges, shall be deposited at the office of the Local Government Board not later that two days after the Bill is read a first time. Ordered, That the said Order be a Standing Order of the House.

Standing Order 63 read, and amended, in page 22, line 9, by inserting after the word "same," the words— Or authorising or enacting the abandonment of the undertaking, or any part of the undertaking, of any such Company, Association, or Copartnership, or the dissolution thereof.

Standing Order 65 read, and amended, in page 24, line 4, by inserting after the word "same," the words— Or authorising or enacting the abandonment of the undertaking, or any part of the undertaking, of any such Company, Association, or Copartnership, or the dissolution thereof.

Standing Order 84 read, and amended, by adding, at the end thereof, the words— And in the case of every Bill required by the Standing Orders to be deposited at the office of the Local Government Board, on or before the 21st day of December, shall also be deposited at the office of the Local Government Board.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

begged to move the following new Standing Order, to follow Standing Order 158:— That in the case of every Bill authorising, before the expiration of the time limited for the completion of a Railway or Tramway, the abandonment thereof, or of any part thereof, and the release of any deposit money impounded as security for such completion, a Report from the Board of Trade respecting the Bill and the objects thereof shall be presented to this House, and be referred to the Committee on the Bill; and the Committee shall report specially to the House in what manner the several recommendations contained in the Report from the Board of Trade have been dealt with by the Committee. He might explain that this was the only new Standing Order which was not purely technical. The present Standing Order required a Railway Company proposing to construct a railway within a certain limited period to deposit a certain sum of money as security for the completion of the authorized line; but it was constantly found that the Railways, when sanctioned, were not carried out, but were abandoned, and the question was—what was to be done with the deposit money? After some correspondence between the Treasury and the authorities of the House, it had been thought that the best mode of dealing with the matter was to require the Board of Trade to make a Report as to the facts of the case—whether the abandonment was just, and whether it interfered with any private rights. That Report would be sent to the Committee on the Bill, authorizing the abandonment of a railway or tramway before the expiration of the time limited for its completion; and the Committee were to be directed to report specially to the House in what manner the several recommendations contained in the Report from the Board of Trade had been dealt with. It seemed to him that the justice of the case would be fully met by that means.

New Standing Order, to follow Standing Order 158:—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, in the case of every Bill authorising, before the expiration of the time limited for the completion of a Railway or Tramway, the abandonment thereof, or of any part thereof, and the release of any deposit money impounded as security for such completion, a Report from the Board of Trade respecting the Bill, and the objects thereof, shall he presented to this House, and he referred to the Committee on the Bill; and the Committee shall report specially to the House in what manner the several recommendations contained in the Report from the Board of Trade have been dealt with by the Committee."—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)

Question proposed, "That the said Order be a Standing Order of the House."

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

remarked, that a question might arise after a Committee had finished its labours whether the Company were going to carry out all their undertakings. He did not understand how the proposed Order met such a case.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

said, the question generally arose in this way. If a Railway Company had not completed its undertaking, it usually applied to Parliament for an extension of time, and a clause was inserted in this subesquent Bill, releasing them from any obligation which they proposed to abandon. It was proposed, by this Standing Order; to refer such Bills to the Board of Trade for their Report upon them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Appendix (A) to Standing Orders read, and amended, in page 63, by inserting, after line 25, the words,— [We also beg to inform you that it is intended that the Act shall provide to the effect, that, notwithstanding Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845 [or Section 90 of The Lands Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845], you may be required to sell and convey a part only of your property, numbered on the deposited plans.]"—(Mr. Lyon Playfair.)