HC Deb 08 August 1882 vol 273 cc1272-7
MR. STUART-WORTLEY

asked, whether the hon. and learned Gentlemen the Attorney General and the Solicitor General approved of the Lords first Amendment?

MR. MONK,

in reply, said, he regretted that the House of Lords had made the Amendment; but it was accepted by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Bramwell, and Lord Cairns.

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendment, in page 2, line 16, leave out "enumerated," and insert "specifically described," agreed to.

Lords Amendment, in line 29, after "taxes," insert— (5.) If execution shall have been levied against the goods of the grantor under any judgment at law.

MR. MONK,

in moving a Consequential Amendment to the foregoing Amendment of the Lords, said, its object was that, in case an execution had been put in on goods of the grantor, in consequence of non-payment of an instalment, that should not be done a few hours after the money had become due; but that the grantor should be empowered, within five days, to apply to the High Court, or to a Judge, to stop execution, on being satisfied that the debt had been paid.

Consequential Amendment proposed, to add— Provided that the grantor may within five days from the seizure or taking possession of any chattels on account of any of the above-mentioned causes, apply to the High Court, or to a judge thereof in chambers, and such court or judge, if satisfied that by payment of money or otherwise the said cause of seizure no longer exists, may restrain the grantee from removing or selling the said chattels, or may make such other order as may seem just."—(Mr. Monk.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. WARTON

said, that was about the coolest Consequential Amendment he had ever heard of. It appeared that they had to pass the Bill exactly as the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) desired it—in a most hurried way—a Bill which was most wretchedly drawn. It seemed as though the hon. Member wanted to pass something this Session; he did not care what. The measure had been absolutely emasculated—the object for which it had been introduced had been lost, and he could not look upon the Amendment as at all consequential.

MR. H. H. FOWLER

said, he would venture to point out to the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton), that not only was the Amendment absolutely necessary in the in- terests of justice, but that it had received the careful attention of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General (Sir Henry James), at whose request it had been brought forward.

MR. WARTON

Oh; that is a different matter.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment, in page 2, line 38, leave out from "sale" to the end of the Clause, and insert— Made or given by way of security for the payment of money by the grantee thereof shall be void unless made in accordance with the form in the schedule to this Act annexed.

MR. WHITLEY

said, that was a very serious alteration indeed, and it appeared to him to require some consideration. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General (Sir Henry James), he knew, attached great importance to the part struck out when the Bill was before the Commons, and he (Mr. Whitley) personally also attached great importance to it. They had taken great pains to guard against bills of sale being executed, except with the fullest knowledge that could be brought to bear upon the matter by the person giving the bill of sale. In order to do that, they said that the solicitor of the person borrowing should be present at the time of the transaction; but the Lords had struck out the provision, and the person who gave the bill of sale was consequently in the hands of the moneylender altogether. If the Bill passed as amended by the Lords, it would be competent for the man borrowing money to go to the money-lender's office, where the money-lender's clerk might attest the document, the man who was principally interested being possibly an illiterate person, knowing nothing at all as to the nature of that which he had signed. He (Mr. Whitley) felt so persuaded of the importance of this Amendment that he should move its rejection.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Mr. Whitley.)

MR. WARTON

said, this was a most important matter, as the effect of the Lords Amendment would be to destroy one of the most important provisions in the Act of 1878, which required that a person about to borrow money, and giving a bill of sale, should do it in the presence of a properly certificated solicitor. If the Amendment were agreed to, and Clause 9A, proposed by their Lordships, was put in, to allow a bill of sale to be given by anybody, it might be that a poor wretch, for the 'sake of a shilling, would be very glad to witness it—in fact, to witness anything. He (Mr. Warton) never in his life knew such a backward step as that to be taken. He was in favour of reasonable reforms, but not to such an alteration as this.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed to the said Amendment, to leave out "grantee" and insert "grantor."

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment, in page 3, after Clause 9, insert the following Clause:— (9A.) The execution of every bill of sale by the grantor shall be attested by one or more credible witness or witnesses, not being a party or parties thereto. So much of Section 10 of the principal Act as requires that the execution of every bill of sale shall be attested by a solicitor of the Supreme Court, and that the attestation shall state that before the execution of the bill of sale the effect thereof has been explained to the grantor by the attesting witness, is hereby repealed.

MR. WARTON

said, he would propose to amend the Amendment of their Lordships by leaving out, in line 2, the words "one or more credible witness or witnesses," in order to insert the words "a certificated solicitor."

Amendment proposed to the Lords said Amendment, In line 2, after the word "by," leave out "one or more credible witness or witnesses," and insert "a certificated solicitor."—(Mr. Warton.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said proposed Amendment."

MR. H. H. FOWLER

said, he hoped the House would agree to the proposed Amendment of the House of Lords. The Committee who sat to consider this question found it a perfect farce to insist upon the attestation of a certificated solicitor. Money-lenders, it was found, could keep a certificated solicitor at a salary to attest bills of sale.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, in page 4, line 19, leave out "eighth and twentieth sections," and insert "twentieth section."

MR. WHITLEY

said, he did not think the House considered the changes that had been made in the Bill. The clause, which it was proposed to strike out, was very carefully considered by the Select Committee, which sat for weeks, and ultimately it was agreed that a bill of sale made within 12 months was good. By striking out this clause all bills of sale would be absolutely void in bankruptcy. The consequences would be very serious indeed, and he had no hesitation in saying that in Lancashire, where hundreds of thousands of pounds were lent on machinery, if this Amendment—brought before them at 3 o'clock in the morning—were agreed to, the effect of it would be to ruin a great many people. Those who were the guardians of the commercial interests of the country ought to pause before they passed a thing of this nature. At present thousands of pounds were lent in this way, and no man would be safe if the Amendment were accepted. He would move that the Amendment be rejected.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Mr. Whitley.)

MR. H. H. FOWLER

said, he wished to say a word on this matter. [Cries of "Agreed!"] No; the question was not one to be decided in an off-hand manner. This was said to be a matter of great importance to commercial men. Up to 1878, property in the order and disposition of a bankrupt was not affected; but in that year the Legislature thought fit to repeal the then existing law, and the evidence given before the Committee was to the effect that that repeal had given an enormous impetus to granting fraudulent bills of sale. The Order and Disposition Clause, being repealed, had increased fraudulent bills of sale. The House of Lords, it seemed, had gone back to what was the law up to 1878; and he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) thought that was a great improvement. Speaking on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce of Wolverhampton, he could say there was no change commercial men were so anxious to see carried out as this.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment disagreed to.

Consequential Amendments made.

Schedule amended, and agreed to.

Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to he assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to an Amendment made by The Lords to "The Bills of Sale Act (1878) Amendment Bill: "—Mr. MONK, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL, Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER, and Mr. BARRAN:—Three to be the quorum:—To withdraw immediately.

Reason for disagreeing to The Lords Amendment reported, and agreed to:—To be communicated to the Lords.

House adjourned at half after Three o'clock.