HC Deb 07 August 1882 vol 273 cc1072-98

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Trevelyan.)

MR. SEXTON

said, the House was now asked to go into Committee on a Bill to amend the Acts regulating the pay of certain officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force, and for other purposes connected therewith. He thought the House would desire, before it went into Committee on this Bill, to hear from the Government whether they had any further statements to make respecting the unprecedented and dangerous state of affairs which appeared to prevail in Ireland among the men of the Constabulary Force. He (Mr. Sexton) and his hon. Friends had at former stages objected to this Bill, because it dealt in a favourable manner with that class of the Constabulary Force who had most exposed itself to popular aversion and criticism in that House, and also because it shut out of view the great body of the men of that Force. Every day which passed showed the state of affairs amongst the police in Ireland to be exceedingly critical, and the reports in the newspapers that morning were such as did not permit of a moment's delay in the matter of the explanation at the hands of the Government. They, on the Irish Benches, had received telegrams every day since last Friday, and he received two to-day which certainly made it his duty to appeal to the Government to tell them whether the proposals they had in view led them to have any reasonable hope that the proposals of the Government would be satisfactory to the men. He thought the House would agree with him that the moment had come when the Chief Secretary should state fully and frankly to the House what were the intentions of the Government. They had learned already from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the Government proposed to distribute £10,000 a-year by way of an increase of £30 a-year to each of the officers, and that the position of the men was to be improved at the rate of 25s. per man per annum. But, whereas each officer had a right to have that increase, the men would not receive their increase of 25s. all round, because it was made dependent and contingent upon the special and extra duty performed, so that the advantage would fall upon a small section of the officers. It was necessary, in order to understand the proposals of the Government, that they should consider what had taken place in Limerick of late. The city of Limerick, for a year or more, had had the advantage of the services of a gentleman who stood in high favour with the Irish Executive—Mr. Clifford Lloyd. They found that yesterday morning that magistrate paraded 80 men of the City Police Force before him, and that he told the men that they were acting in an unprecedented and disgraceful manner, and that if they were soldiers they would be liable to be shot. The situation immediately became such that Mr. Clifford Lloyd thought it the better part of valour to retire. The men returned to their barracks, and they made a joint declaration that, if they were called upon a second time to parade before Mr. Clifford Lloyd, they would not do so. Surely such a situation as that demanded the attention of the Government, and one might almost expect a statement from the Secretary of State for War on the subject. Four other parades were held that day, and although Mr. Clifford Lloyd had not the temerity to appear a second time before the men, the Inspector General met the men at the second and subsequent parades, and informed them they were engaged in a very disloyal movement. The men met, and unanimously decided that the language of Colonel Bruce conveyed an insult upon them, and they called upon him for an apology. The Inspector General thereupon apologized to the men, and told them that he had intended no insult. The upshot was, that the Inspector General called upon the men to give up their demands, and withdraw the Circular in which they had made their demands. They refused to do anything of the sort; and upon an expression of their determination to hold by their movement, the Inspector General left the city. The men demanded that their grievances should be settled in eight days, and stated that if they were not, there would be an open rupture. He had no desire to make any undue demand on the right hon. Gentleman when he asked him to state whether the Government had any reasonable hope that the proposals they had to make would have the effect of allaying the dissatisfaction that prevailed at the present moment amongst the Police Force of Ireland?

MR. TREVELYAN

said, he did not admit in theory the justice of the hon. Member's assertion that on a Bill such as this it was necessary to make any statement with regard to the grave events passing in Ireland; but, at the same time, there was sufficient connection between the subject of this Bill and those events to make it natural for the hon. Member to put his question. He had explained more than once that this Bill was only part of a considerable scheme, which the Government determined on some time ago, for the purpose of bettering the position of the Constabulary in Ireland. He had ex- plained that while the officers gained, in the shape of allowances, £10,000 a-year by this scheme, the men got £17,000 a-year, a large part of which was paid to special men under special circumstances, but part of which was paid to all men under all circumstances. He had explained, likewise, that another part of the scheme referred, not to the annual advantage which men and officers got, but to a limited sum which was to be paid in consideration of the sufferings and sacrifices of the men during the last three years. The Government were prepared to grant a sum of £180,000, every penny of which was to go to the men. These benefits to the Constabulary Force the Government had determined on granting before there was any thought of discontent. With regard to any complaints that the Constabulary had outside the complaints which would be satisfied by this sum of money—£180,000—and the sums of money which would be granted annually—£17,000—whatever complaints there were, the men undoubtedly should have taken the course of applying to the Government through their officers, like every other body of organized public servants, whether they be civil or military. It was not the first time he had had to do with discontent in a public Office. He had known before this trusted Members of Parliament coming to him with a Petition from clerks in public Offices, or from workmen in Dockyards, asking him to improve the position of the men; and the answer that he had always given was the answer, in fact, which he should give now to the Irish Constabulary—namely, that the Government would listen to no Petition whatever that was not presented through the superior officers of the persons who desired to have their position improved. That was the course which the Constabulary of Ireland ought to have taken; but on the present occasion a portion of them, at any rate, had not taken that course. What the exact condition of the movement was, how far it had spread, how far it was legitimate, how far it had passed beyond legitimate bounds, in what parts of Ireland it had occurred, it was not very easy to ascertain; it was not very easy to ascertain this through the newspapers or through, he was sorry to say, a very much less authoritative and trustworthy source of evidence with which they were only too freely provided. There was a feature in this movement to which he once before referred, and which had now reached such a very alarming development that it was impossible not to say another word about it, and that was the use that had been made of the telegraph all over Ireland. From every quarter of Ireland he had got, and he had reason to believe many hon. Members had got, anonymous telegrams. ["No!"] He assured the House that all the telegrams he had received had been anonymous. They professed to come from a great body of men; but there was no reason to believe they came from any but a very few men, or, perhaps, from one man. Those men or that man they did not know. The other day he got a telegram, and as it was evidently sent for the purpose of being made public and exciting ill-feeling, there was no objection to his telling the House what it was. It professed to come from the pensioners of the Constabulary, and it was to the effect that these pensioners would be very glad to join by force of arms in putting down the Constabulary—he believed the words were—in revolt. Now, he did not believe for a single moment that the telegram came from the pensioners of the Constabulary. He believed it was sent from some mischievous person for the purpose of stirring up ill-feeling between the pensioners and the Constabulary, and inciting the Constabulary against the Government by conveying the impression that the Chief Secretary was in connection with the pensioners for the purpose of acting in a hostile manner against the Constabulary themselves. That was one specimen of the telegrams he had received. He got a telegram this morning purporting to come from the Royal Irish Constabulary in the county and city of Cork. He did not believe that it was in any sense a representative telegram. The message was— Your speech to Parliament on Saturday has driven the Force to desperation by falsely representing its feeling by saying we were satisfied with the Government proposals. Most intense dissatisfaction prevails, and your closing words as to the qualifications for full pensions stings the men almost to distraction. He knew not by whom this telegram was sent; but it was obviously sent by some clever person who desired to stir up dis- satisfaction amongst the Constabulary at a time when they were in an excited state. He never said anything to the effect that the Constabulary were satisfied with the Government proposals; but he knew, on good authority, that one cause of the dissatisfaction of the police was that one of theGrovernmentproposals—that which gave £180,000—had not yet passed through the Committee of the House of Commons. As to the qualifications for pensions, he never said one word, good, bad, or indifferent. The Government proposed to give these boons to men and officers long before the recent events occurred. They proposed to give them still; and he earnestly hoped that the House and the Committee would enable them, as soon as possible, to carry those proposals into practice. The Government was not unwilling to consider the complaints of the men; full inquiry would be made into the complaints; but the Government would not entertain any representations as long as the present attitude on the part of any considerable part of the Constabulary existed. That attitude was opposed to discipline, and discreditable to the Force, and if the Government took any other line they would not be worthy to be called a Government. Full inquiry would be made into the condition of the Constabulary; but this movement, which was passing over a larger or smaller part of the country—this movement, which he believed to be very much exaggerated—must stop before that inquiry began. He felt the extreme difficulty that anyone was under who spoke upon such a matter of detail as this at a distance from the spot. He longed to be back in Ireland and to take his share in dealing with this movement in the manner in which he thought such movements should be dealt with—with thorough firmness, and, at the same time, with conciliation. He was, however, detained here until these measures, which the Government had so long promised, both to the men and officers, were passed. He intreated hon. Gentlemen to bring the Committee to a speedy conclusion.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, he was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary hold out the hope that the demands of the men in this case would be considered. He could not blame the right hon. Gentleman for requiring that the grievances complained of should be put forward in the regular way through the officers of the Force; but, knowing the state of the Constabulary in Limerick, and the kind of work they had been doing for some time, he was bound to ask the right hon. Gentleman to take into consideration what the men had passed through. He had received a letter, only to-day, from the Mayor of Limerick, as loyal a man as any Government official who was employed in the town. His Worship said he did not wonder at the agitation, because all classes, civil and military, were disgusted by what had been going on there, and the sooner a change, and a radical change, in the present administration of the city took place the better it would be for all classes. He (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) had known the men of the Constabulary in Limerick for a good many years; he had known them thoroughly loyal, thoroughly active, and, above all, thoroughly patient in the discharge of very disagreeable duties. The other day the men were really provoked by language used by a gentleman who had no official position entitling him to hold such language. This gentleman—Mr. Clifford Lloyd—told the men he had been bearing the brunt of the discontent in the city for months, and if they were soldiers they would be liable to be shot. The men very properly told him they were not soldiers, and they reminded him what their agreement with the Government was. They assured Mr. Clifford Lloyd that they meant to carry out their agreement; they meant to protect the peace of the city, no matter what happened, and they had acted with perfect good faith. Great allowance was to be made for these men in Limerick and elsewhere. The testimony, not merely of persons in Limerick who shared his views, but of many Conservatives he had spoken to, was that these men had been overworked, and that their patience had been taxed in many ways. They had been put not only to hard work, but to needless and useless work, for what purpose it was difficult to say. They had been doing not merely ordinary police duty, but military duty, besides aiding the process of the civil law under circumstances which had hitherto been unusual, and they had been called upon to discharge military guard duties, which were very unsatisfactory. A great deal had been said about their disloyalty. He rejoiced that the Inspector General withdrew the word "disloyal." The men did not deserve the charge of disloyalty; if they were disloyal they would not have waited until there was peace in the country. They had waited until disturbance had passed, until their demands could do no harm; and it was only now, when just laws had been passed and the prospects of the country were brighter, that they were making their voice heard. He trusted that what had occurred would be forgotten; that they would be allowed an opportunity of presenting their claims in a regular way through their officers, and that those claims would receive the just consideration which their conduct in the past deserved, and which the right hon. Gentleman had promised.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said, that every hon. Member would agree that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary should be allowed to go to Ireland and take up his duties there. Their desire to precipitate the action of the right hon. Gentleman in that direction, however, did not preclude them from the duty of stating their opinions as to the measure now before the House. He (Mr. O'Connor) was surprised to hear the statement coming from the Chief Secretary—that these telegrams were, as a rule, sent by one man. Some of them were long—one which had been received by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) must have cost 2s. 3d. Several telegrams were received from the same place as the one to which he referred by Members of Parliament, and he must be a very strange man indeed who thought that the police who were complaining—and justly complaining—of their small salaries, had so much money that one single member of the Force could send a telegram like this to dozens of Members of Parliament. The telegrams might have been despatched by one man; but their numbers showed that there must have been a purse made up to defray the cost. He thought the speech of the Chief Secretary threw a deal of light upon what had happened in the district to which reference had been made. The hon. Member for Sligo had asked several very plain and distinct categorical questions as to the transactions of the men in the city of Limerick, and their parade under Mr. Clifford Lloyd. He had asked whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd had not told the men that if they were soldiers they would have been shot; and, if so, whether discontent was not likely to be increased by that? They had here the Member for the City of Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy), whose obedience to the Government could not be questioned yet, and they saw him rising up and telling the Government distinctly that the cause of all this disturbance and discontent amongst the police of Limerick had been the novel and strange duties which had been cast on them. The men had been asked, as the hon. Member had said, to perform military as well as police duties. The hon. Member, out of excess of delicacy, had not carried his thought out to its full extent, and said that the men were discontented because their officers were removed from them, because their duties were enlarged, and, in other words, because Mr. Clifford Lloyd was amongst them. A movement like this must be met by a mingled spirit of firmness and conciliation, the right hon. Gentleman said. He (Mr. O'Connor) agreed with that; but how could they meet these men in a spirit of conciliation when they kept over them a man who had been the chief engenderer of the spirit of discontent that had arisen? The first thing they should do to make the police in Ireland contented was to send Mr. Clifford Lloyd back to Belfast, the place he had come from, or, when the Bill passed, give him the facility of taking advantage of the increased pensions. The Chief Secretary did not understand the position of the Irish Members with regard to this Bill. They were told these men were going to get £180,000. They knew that the annual sum in the shape of allowances was £17,000, and they were now told that an additional £180,000 was to be given in the form of a gratuity. What, however, the men asked for was something like a permanent increase to their salaries. When they were putting this case before the House last Saturday—and no one could say they had put it at exhaustive length or with any want of moderation—one of the main objections they raised against the Bill was that the men would see that the 13,000 privates were neglected, and the 300 officers were pampered and petted. That was a statement that one could make with nothing but a mere ordinary inference to go upon; but since that statement had been made he had had a Memorial sent to him by a body of these police, and he saw by that that those who had joined the Force since the 1st of August, 1866, were placed in a most unfair position as to pensions. Several matters of complaint were urged in the Memorial, and they asked for an additional 1s. a-day as remuneration for their services. Having stated their grievances, the Memorialists went on to say that a distinction was drawn between the officers and the men—that the pay and pensions of the officers were to be increased without at all taking into account the claims of the men who were the main workers, and whose duties were the more onerous. The men took the same view that the Irish Members took last Saturday, and contrasted the neglect of their interests with the tender care bestowed on the officers. He (Mr. O'Connor) must say that the Irish Executive appeared to him to be blundering in a most infatuate manner. On a famous occasion a Leader of the Opposition—he forgot whom—said to the Government—"Take back your Bill!" Well, he (Mr. O'Connor) ventured most respectfully to offer the same advice to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He would say to him—"Take back your Bill!" [Mr. O'SHEA dissented.] He saw that the hon. Member for the County of Clare (Mr. O'Shea), who had been a gallant officer himself and might be allowed to have some sympathy with the Constabulary officers, objected to that suggestion; but it certainly seemed to him that it would be better for the tranquillity of Ireland and of the Force that they should postpone the measure. They certainly would lose nothing by delay, although they were likely to risk a great deal by dealing with this matter in a piecemeal fashion.

MR. CALLAN

said, that on Friday last, when he asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary a Question as to the accuracy of the reports which were circulated in the newspapers with regard to the discontent existing amongst the Constabulary, the right hon. Gentleman characterized those reports as extraordinary exaggerations. That was the right hon. Gentleman's first statement; and it now turned out that it was made on the authority of the Constabulary offi- cers, and of others outside the Police Force. Was the right hon. Gentleman still of that opinion? Were the statements which appeared in the papers owing to the work of agitators, or to the legitimate grievances of men who had found where the shoe pinched? The right hon. Gentleman had gone on to say that nothing had occurred but what was consistent with the good order of this most loyal Force—as he (Mr. Callan) quite believed it to be. On Saturday, the right hon. Gentleman had quoted a paragraph from a letter written, he presumed, on the previous day by the Inspector General of Constabulary, in which the Inspector General said— I do not believe there is any improper feeling existing in their ranks, although they, no doubt, feel disappointed at the non-receipt of their share of the £180,000, which they have long expected. That seemed to be the only matter—that £180,000—which had the right hon. Gentleman's attention. Had not the columns of The Freeman's Journal contained details as to the grievances of the men? No doubt; but, as the Government did not give its advertisements to that paper, they, of course, did not condescend to read it. The officers gave a very different account of what was taking place to that rendered by the men. The Report from the officers was received from the right hon. Gentleman on Saturday. The authorities were fond of letter-writing. A document, marked "Private and confidential," had been circulated by the Inspector General of Police. He (Mr. Callan) had obtained a copy of it. It was in these words—"Royal Irish Constabulary Office"—

MR. TREVELYAN

Did I not understand the hon. Member to say it was marked "Private and confidential?"

MR. CALLAN

said, it was one of those documents marked "Private and confidential;" but it would appear in tomorrow's newspapers, for he had sent a copy of it to Ireland for the information of the Constabulary. But, before he read the document in question, he would give the Committee some idea of what led up to it. He had always understood that the Royal Irish Constabulary was not a military body. It had often been denied in that House; and it was clear that it was not, for, like the letter-carriers, the constables could leave on giving a certain notice—he believed a month's notice. The following was some part of the text of the document which had caused so much commotion in official circles. It was addressed, "To the Right Hon. G. O. Trevelyan, Chief Secretary of Ireland," and commenced— The Memorial of the Royal Irish Constabulary of the City and County of Cork. Your Memorialists beg to submit the following statement of grievances for your consideration, and what steps may be taken for the redress of the same. And it went on to say— That the members of the Force who have joined since the 1st of August, 1866, are placed on a lower scale of pension than men who joined previous to that date. A sub-constable who is now in receipt of £62 a year, having joined since 1866, will, after 30 years' service, be only entitled to a pension of about £36, whereas, had he joined previous to that, he would, on retiring, be entitled to full pay. At the end of the second paragraph the Memorial said— That the sum of at least 1s. per day added to the pay of each member of the Force would be but a slight recognition of the wants of the men. It was further complained— That the married men of the Force are not allowed any extra pay. And that— There is a hardship on those men who may be stationed where there is no accommodation or additional bedding. Additional outlay is thus incurred. Another paragraph set forth— That a distinction is now being drawn between the men and officers, although the pay and pension of the entire Force was, since its embodiment, regulated by the same Statutes. The Memorial concluded with the words— That the Force have always performed their duties with zeal and loyalty second to no servants of Her Majesty, and the slight recognition of their services now sought for ought not to be refused. Your Memorialists therefore pray that the foregoing grievances may be redressed, as in case of their being allowed to longer continue the members of the Force of the county and city of Cork will find it impossible to perform their duties in the efficient manner they have hitherto done. The Memorial was, throughout, couched in the most respectful terms; but the House would see it in the papers before long. There were two outrages committed on the men—one of them on Saturday. He (Mr. Callan) had received a telegram from Cork, requesting him to ask the Question of which he had given Notice to-day. The telegram was as follows:— R. I. C., Cork City. Head Constable Cantillon seized our Memorial to-day, placed Constable Murphy under arrest, charged with illegal documents in pos-session, though it was but our Memorial. Please question in House. Sincere thanks. On Saturday afternoon Policeman Murphy was arrested for being in possession of the Memorial—for having followed the very course of conduct that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had recommended. The policeman, it seemed, had gone to a brother constable, and had asked him to sign this document, and for so doing he was seized and imprisoned. Was Head Constable Cantillon to be blamed? Because while Constable Murphy was under arrest and the Memorial was seized, in the mail train that was then coming down there was this letter from Inspector General Bruce, dated August 4— Royal Irish Constabulary Office, Dublin Castle, 4th Aug., 1882. I have this day learned with sincere pain and regret that grave discredit has been thrown upon the character and discipline of this Force, by a Circular, purporting to emanate from the Police of the City of Limerick setting forth certain claims —"purporting" to come from the police and "setting forth certain claims;" a palpable misrepresentation of the Memorial he (Mr. Callan) had quoted from— As to pay, &c, and addressed to their comrades in other parts of the country with the evident intention of obtaining a combination in support of those claims. I further learn with regret that the Circular has met with responses purporting to come from the police in several of the places to which it is addressed. I cannot too strongly reprobate such a course. I am unwilling to believe that it has been joined in or encouraged by any large number or by the older and more experienced members of the Force; but that they should have permitted it on the part of themselves, if such is the case, is a serious disgrace. I would have, on the contrary, expected that the recent large efforts made by the Government, by a liberal increase to the ordinary allowances and by an application to Parliament for £180,000 for distribution to recoup the men for extra expenses incurred during the late troubled times, would have inspired the Force with sufficient confidence in the Government and in the Inspector General to lead them to refrain from any course other than the legitimate and disciplined one for preferring claims laid down by Article 340 of the Code, "The Code!" Where was that Code? The Irish Members had often asked for it, but had never been allowed to see it. Was there anything discreditable or disgraceful in it? If not, why refuse to let them see it? Why refuse to place it on the Table of the House? The document went on to say— I have never before received any representation that the pay of the men was generally inadequate to the supply of necessaries; but I may state that some other of the matters referred to in the Circular have for some time past engaged my attention, but that I now feel that the undisciplined action referred to, especially if persevered in, must cause such a change of feeling as will certainly tend to retard rather than to advance all efforts made to improve the condition of the Force. (Signed) "R. BRUCE, Inspector General. He (Mr. Callan) had received a large number of private telegrams and letters—to the extent of about a dozen at a time; but one which he had received that night showed that it had been tampered with, and this was the one containing this Memorial to which he had referred. As to the conduct of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, he would read what had appeared in a Limerick Conservative newspaper— In accordance with the Statute one month's notice is required from members of the Constabulary Force before they can leave, and the men on strike are determined to comply strictly with the law, so that no imputation of disloyalty can be alleged against them. Mr. Clifford Lloyd, S. R. M., inspected the men this morning at William Street Barracks, and on parade addressed the men on the subject of their agitation. He said that, 'if you were soldiers, you would be shot for your misconduct.' On hearing this expression of opinion, a fierce shout of 'We are not soldiers,' went up from the men; and an intimation was subsequently conveyed to the Sub-Inspector (Mr. Wilton) that if Mr. Lloyd again inspected the men (he intimated that he would do so), they would, in consequence of his language, refuse to parade before him. It is stated that this information was at once conveyed to Mr. Lloyd, who did not make the second visit, but Colonel Bruce, the Inspector General of Royal Irish Constabulary, arrived in the city to-day, at 1 o'clock, and, at 2 o'clock this afternoon, inspected the men of William Street. After the inspection he addressed them, and said that he was ashamed of the conduct of the men; that the Government had altered the opinion which they previously had of the loyalty of the Force, and that the people of the country had lost their respect for them as a body. He (Mr. Callan) would ask the Chief Secretary—and before he sat down he would move the adjournment of the debate in order to enable the right hon. Gentleman to answer—whether Colonel Bruce was authorized by him to state that, in consequence of their conduct, the Government had altered the opinion which they previously had of the loyalty of the Force? That statement was made in Limerick on Saturday, at about the time the right hon. Gentleman was reiterating what he had said on the previous day as to the loyalty of the Royal Irish Constabulary. The report went on to say— At hearing this language a perfect murmur of disapprobation passed through the ranks, and the perfect discipline of the men only prevented them from expressing their denial of the insinuation of disloyalty. The effect of this language has had a fearful effect on the morale of the men, and has provoked them very much indeed. We have it on good authority that if a kindly spirit were evinced towards them that the result would have been quite different. If the men carry out their intentions to resign, the condition of the peace of the country, which at present, need we say, is not in a very desirable state, will be most precarious. In another article it was said— In spite of the solemn assurances of Mr. Trevelyan in the House of Commons last night—assurances made, it is true, in the usual flippant style which characterizes all the utterances of the present Ministry—the Royal Irish Constabulary question is assuming a most formidable aspect. On this evening week we published the initiative announcement with reference to the threatened resignation of the men stationed in the William Street Barracks. From that to the present the federation has rapidly spread, until it now forms a complete network extending all over the country, no one Constabulary station being excluded from the combination. That the Irish Chief Secretary, 'glad to have the opportunity of mentioning the subject,' as he smilingly stated, should pronounce that the matter, which from a local and, it must be allowed, a more accurate standpoint, we must emphatically affirm to be the most serious event which has taken place in this country for a series of years, was grossly exaggerated by the newspapers, was an inaccurate, no less than a monstrous assertion. He (Mr. Callan) had here a telegram sent from the Macroom Office by "The Royal Irish Constabulary at West Cork," in these words— You are requested earnestly to question Clifford Lloyd's authority to interfere with our financial matters, and, in doing so, charge them with mutiny and disloyalty, thereby outraging their feelings. Was Mr. Clifford Lloyd authorized to make that charge, or was it a characteristic piece of presumption on his part? He had received a telegram from Belfast at 10 o'clock to-night; and in reading it he would ask, were the Government going to drive these men to extremities? The telegram said— R. I. C.—Belfast,—Meeting of Belfast police, convened for this evening, prohibited by authorities. Three hundred men assembled in Town Hall. Town Inspector at length permitted conference in Barracks. Memorial setting forth grievances read to men, who marched from Town Hall to Queen Street Barrack. Great difficulties in our way. Free expression of our opinion suppressed. Was that the manner in which the men were to be quieted? A policeman who had lived some time in the county he (Mr. Callan) represented, a well educated man, had written to him to thank him for what he had done in the cause of the Constabulary, and, at the same time, to give him a few tips. This constable had informed him that the men were discontented and disappointed at the insult offered to them in the enormous increase of pay proposed to be given to the County and Sub-Inspectors, whilst the men were left in the lurch—to County and Sub-Inspectors, many of whom had been seen smoking cigars and drinking brandy at prohibited hours, when the men were out in the cold doing extra duty without extra pay. Here was another letter he had received— Clonmel, August 5, 1882. Dear Sir,—If you would ask on whose recommendation Mr. Colomb, A. J. G., was promoted over the heads of all the 1st class County Inspectors of the Royal Irish Constabulary, you would let a little light into the present discontent. Lord Kenmare was an old friend of Mr. Colomb, and when the Duke of Con-naught was at Killarney, he sent to Mayo for Mr. Colomb, and made him the Duke's fisherman for the time being; hence his rapid advancement. Such is the manner of doing business at the Castle, Dublin.—Yours, faithfully, D. IRELAND. This was the first Bill introduced into the House dealing with the Constabulary in sections, and not as a whole. Formerly, when any Bill was introduced in reference to any body of men, it dealt with the body altogether; but here was a Bill brought in to increase and mark still more the difference between the men and the officers of the Constabulary, giving £ 180,000 to the men for the past, and 25s. increase yearly for the future. The men must have some increase, though probably not as much as they asked for, and for the 13,000 men some- thing like £234,000 a-year would be involved. Instead of 25s. a-year, the increase ought to be something like £25 a-year if the Force was to be maintained. It had been said by some Liberals and Radicals below the Gangway that they would send Scotchmen and Englishmen to Ireland. But the Chief Secretary had received a legacy of discontent and hatred, and he (Mr. Callan) must say that he had great hopes, after six months' experience of the Chief Secretary, that the right hon. Gentleman, if he was not deluded by the Castle officials, would make his Office much more respectable, and would create a much kinder feeling than at present existed. He would ask the Chief Secretary to look matters plainly in the face. If this Police Force was undisciplined, let it be borne in mind that during the last five years no attention had been paid to its demands. There had been discontent growing in Ireland for the last 12 months among the Police; and yet the officials at Dublin Castle had had the temerity, for it was nothing but that, to write to the Chief Secretary to state that this discontent was merely an ebullition which had been much exaggerated. That was the advice the Chief Secretary received from the Inspector General; but he would urge the right hon. Gentleman to exercise his own good feeling in the matter, to see what these men had suffered in the last three years, to see how laborious had been their duties without any extra pay, and without any hope for the future, to examine into these matters and, despite some possible imprudences on the part of the men, take their case at once into consideration. Such a course would do far more to allay the discontent than any threats or private Circulars; and he hoped Mr. Clifford Lloyd would be relegated to some other position, and that it would be stated in the House that Mr. Clifford Lloyd had exceeded his duty. It was the universal belief in Limerick that Mr. Clifford Lloyd had irritated these men in order to make a great man of himself, and show how necessary it was to have him to quell the discontent, and that if he was dispensed with, the country would go to the dogs. He would move the adjournment of the debate to enable the Chief Secretary to throw out some hope to the Irish Police that he would judge their case by him- self, and not by Mr. Clifford Lloyd, or the blundering Inspector General.

MR. HEALY

seconded the Motion, and expressed surprise that in debates like this, when Mr. Clifford Lloyd was under discussion, the Government was not more often favoured with the assistance of the late Chief Secretary (Mr. W. E. Forster), who was responsible for appointing that gentleman. Whenever the Government was criticized with reference to its present difficulties, which were mainly owing to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, that right hon. Gentleman gave the House the benefit of his absence. The complaints which had been made against Mr. Clifford Lloyd in the last 12 months had terminated in this semi-revolt. The character of Mr. Clifford Lloyd had been impressed upon the Government years ago, and it was instructive now to find that the contention that he was a stirrer-up and a firebrand was proved to be correct, and that the statement that he was the preserver of the peace was incorrect. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was for some years a magistrate in the North of Ireland; then he was sent to Kilmallock, in the county of Limerick, and in that place there were more murders than in any other. Then he was sent to Limerick, and in a week there were riots in that city, and at this moment it was the only important city in which the Government had had to issue a proclamation under the "Curfew" Clause of the Coercion Act. The inhabitants were liable to arrest for being out after dark, and this was all owing to Mr. Clifford Lloyd. He (Mr. Healy) had recently received a letter from one of the unfortunate policemen in that district, who was serving under Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and he found there were 14 persons protecting Mr. Clifford Lloyd. What was he doing? He was very fond of smoking, and he kept one policeman occupied in rolling cigarettes for him, and if the unfortunate man relaxed in the duty of rolling cigarettes he was threatened with summary punishment by Mr. Clifford Lloyd. What was the history of Mr. Clifford Lloyd? He would like to give the House a short biographical sketch of Mr. Clifford Lloyd supplied by Dublin Castle. It was an extraordinary thing that in Dublin Castle they never kept anything to themselves, and he found that Mr. Clif- ford Lloyd obtained an appointment at Belfast by paying £300, and that circumstance could not be denied except by a falsehood. That amount was paid in half-yearly instalments. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was detested in his regiment by his brother officers and the men so much that, when his regiment was to be inspected, the men determined to break up the step in order to give the Inspector General the idea that the regiment was inefficient. He was formerly a cadet at Sandhurst, and after being expelled from Sandhurst for disgraceful conduct, he got employment in Burmah, through the influence of his father. On one occasion, last year, Mr. Clifford Lloyd hired a special train, and dashed from Dundalk to Drogheda with 30 or 40 police, and the men were in such a hurry to disperse a meeting that was being held that they left their mess-blankets in the mud, and charged at the double. He (Mr. Healy) was at that time addressing the meeting, and Mr. Clifford Lloyd gave orders for the dispersal of the meeting. It was an unpleasant thing to address a meeting with the muzzles of guns at one's head, and so orders were given to disperse the meeting; but Mr. Clifford Lloyd said if the people did not clear out he would order the men to fire upon them. That occurrence had been proved; but the late Chief Secretary refused to inquire into it. After he went to Limerick the murders increased, and now, owing to cigarette rolling and other amusements, this revolt had broken out. Mr. Clifford Lloyd had told the men that if they were soldiers they would have been shot. No doubt if he had charge of them they would have been shot. What was loyalty? Nobody was loyal to an abstraction; but these men had to be loyal for 1s. 6d. a-day, and they were loyal or disloyal according to the scale of their wages. He remembered the late Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Bright) sneering at the British Army, and saying he could buy as much valour as was wished at 10s. a-day. He (Mr. Healy) could buy as much loyalty as was wished at 1s. 6d. a-day; but in Limerick, in consequence of various circumstanoes, loyalty had gone up, and, while the men were loyal at 1s. 6d. a-day, they considered the market price should, be higher now, and had refused to serve Her Majesty without a corre- sponding increase in their pay. He could not understand a man saying he was loyal to an abstraction like the Crown; and, therefore, he maintained that, with regard to the loyalty of these men, they did protest too much. As to these men being treated better, they would be treated just as it suited the Chief Secretary. If it suited the Government to give them £100 a-year more they would get it; if not, they would not get it. These men would get just what the exigencies of the Government required, and nothing less or more. He did not think that they would resign, as was suggested; but that they would simply bluster. He would give the Chief Secretary a hint. Many of these men were on the way to pensions, having served five, 10, or 15 years. The greatest disposition to strike would be amongst the men who joined the Force yesterday or the day before; and the least disposed to strike would be those who were on the way to pensions. That was common sense, and the Chief Secretary would do well to divide the men into two classes—the men who had half served their time, because they would serve the remainder; and the men who had not served a sufficient time to establish a sinking fund. The latter would probably get some employment not so discreditable, and they might, perhaps, go to America. The Chief Secretary and the Home Secretary had laid great stress on the "Boycotting" Clause of the Coercion Act, which dealt with men leaving their employment. Here were the Constabulary threatening to throw the Queen's Government into confusion, and what was the Government going to do with regard to their case? A man leaving his employment might be sent to prison; but the Irish Constabulary could act in that way, and send out threatening Circulars, and the Government did not dare to touch them. That showed that Ireland was governed by expediency. The Chief Secretary had been at great pains to quote anonymous telegrams. That was quite right, for if the men sent their names they would be discharged individually. What did this measure, which was introduced with a view to increase the pay of the officers, do? For the sake of 300 officers the House was to be put to an enormous amount of trouble; and, after all, what was to be done? Three hundred officers got £30 per annum each. They were the cream of the Service; but the skim of the Service got 25s. a man. This was said to be extraordinarily excellent treatment, and was put forward by Mr. Bruce, the head officer, to induce the men to keep quiet. He would remind the Government that upon this Constabulary Force their hold on Ireland depended. The police knew that that was the case, and they would drive their bargain accordingly; and the measure of their demand would be the measure of their usefulness to the Government, and the measure of their success would be the exigencies of the Government. If the English, having used these men in disgraceful acts, could now turn them off, they would throw them away like sucked oranges, and the men knew it. If the English Government thought they could not govern Ireland without these men they would keep them in their service, and these were the men by whom the country would be governed.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Callan.)

MR. T. A. DICKSON

said, he wished to express his sympathy with the Police Force in Ireland in their natural anxiety to have their grievances inquired into and redressed. Having come into contact with the police for many years as a magistrate, he felt bound to bear testimony to the way in which they had discharged their duties. No body of men in the employment of the Government or Her Majesty could discharge their duties with more zeal and ability, even under very tempting circumstances. The Chief Secretary had said the men could make their grievances known through officers. He could agree with that; but what encouragement did the men in Cork get, when, in the presence of their officers, they stated their grievances, and were told by Mr. Clifford Lloyd that if they were soldiers they would be shot, and by the Inspector General that they were disloyal men? In his opinion, Mr. Clifford Lloyd and Colonel Bruce had had a splendid opportunity of throwing oil on the troubled waters; but, by their recent action, they had done more to spread discontent among the Police Force in Ireland than anything that had occurred since this agitation commenced. Reference had been made to this £180,000. What had been the cause of the delay in the distribution of that amount? Why had it been so long kept from the Force? That was one of the grievances under which the men said they laboured. It had been stated in that House that the men were in revolt; but he did not believe anything of the kind. He believed the men were only anxious, and were afraid of this opportunity passing away without their grievances being inquired into. He remembered going both to the Castle at Dublin and to the Irish Office in London to state some of the grievances under which they were labouring. One of these had relation to the fines of, say, £1 or £2 imposed on the members of the Force in the earlier years of their service. Not only were they fined for drunkenness and other faults at the time, but at the end of their service a certain sum of money was taken off their retiring allowances. He did not believe in any expedient to redress the grievance under which they suffered, and which he had from the men themselves, that did not go to the root of this matter. The Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant had made what he regarded, and what he believed would be regarded by the men of the Constabulary, as a satisfactory statement, in saying that when he returned to Ireland the grievance of the police should be at once inquired into. He certainly did not think the Government could state anything further than that. The Government were not in a position to say that they would concede the demands of the police to-day or tomorrow, because time was obviously necessary for inquiring into the subject, and the right ton. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had stated that the condition of the Police Force should be fully inquired into. He believed, that announcement, when it was known in Ireland, would be, and ought to be, satisfactory to the Constabulary. When the right hon. Gentleman went to Dublin Castle he strongly advised him to confer with Lord Spencer as to the withdrawal of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and to recommend his being sent from the South into the North of Ireland. As he had before remarked, Mr. Clifford Lloyd might inspire terror of the law, but not respect for it, in the minds of the Irish people; and he held the opinion that the sooner he was removed from his present position the better it would be for the Police Force.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

said, that, personally, he had some sympathy with the police in this matter. No one could have watched the Force during the last two or three years without feeling that an excessive amount of labour had been placed on that body, and for the state of things which existed he did not think it possible too severely to blame Her Majesty's Government. There could be no doubt that the condition of disloyalty and disturbance reigning in Ireland owed its origin to the weakness of the present Administration, and it was that which had cast this extra work upon the Irish Constabulary. He did not know whether the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) wished to be considered the champion of the Force; but, if so, he had no doubt that that very loyal and praiseworthy Force would repudiate the charge that their loyalty was to be estimated at 1s. 6d. a-day. With regard to Mr. Clifford Lloyd, the present occurrences offered the Irish Party a very convenient opportunity for an attack upon that officer. The newspaper reports of Saturday last from Limerick entirely failed to bear out the charge against Mr. Clifford Lloyd, who, it seemed, had addressed the men in a very moderate manner. The reports certainly did not justify the statement of the hon. Member for Wexford; and, moreover, he would point out that some 80 members of the Constabulary at Limerick replied to Mr. Clifford Lloyd in a very satisfied and thankful tone. They told him they had no fault to find with him; that they were satisfied with his kindly intentions towards the Force, and that they wished, as far as possible, to follow out his advice. Any exasperation which took place subsequently seemed to be due not to the address of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, but to the address of another officer. The hon. Member for Wexford transposed the characters of the two addresses. [Mr. HEALY: No!] He maintained his opinion upon that point. The hon. Member for Wexford had given the character of Colonel Bruce's speech to that of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and did not fairly represent the character of Mr. Lloyd's speech. Now, as far as he had been able to follow Mr. Clifford Lloyd's public career, he thought he had proved himself to be a most efficient public servant; and, even if he had not, he should have been dis- posed to defend him, in view of the personal attacks which were constantly being made on him in that House. He was in great personal danger. [Mr. HEALY: He wears a coat of mail.] He (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett) was quite sure if the hon. Member for Wexford was in the same position as Mr. Clifford Lloyd he would wear 10 coats of mail. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was in a portion of Ireland which had always been one of the most troubled districts; he was sent there to quell disturbance, and the moment he arrived at his post Irish Members on that side of the House below the Gangway lost no opportunity of attacking and vilifying his character. He trusted the Government would give every consideration they were able to afford to the grievances of the Irish Constabulary. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant had, he believed, promised to do so; but his own view was that a considerable extra remuneration was due to men who, like the Royal Irish Constabulary, had performed such arduous and dangerous labours during the last three years.

MR. LEWIS

said, he regarded the particular subject which had caused him to place a Notice of Amendment on the Paper as typical of the way in which the Royal Irish Constabulary had been treated for many years past. He referred to the inequality of pensions granted. Under the Acts of 1847, 1866, and 1874, a man who retired on one day found himself only entitled to half that which a man of the same rank and length of service, who retired the day after, was entitled to. That, he repeated, was typical of the way in which the men, whether active or retired, had been treated by past Governments. Now, this question was an important one, and at half-past 2 in the morning it was not reasonable to suppose that justice could be done to it. Moreover, there were other questions dealt with in the Bill that ought to be considered very carefully. Under the circumstances, he should support the Motion for the adjournment of the debate.

MR. TREVELYAN

said, the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) had moved the adjournment of the debate with the specific purpose, as far as he understood, of giving him the opportunity of stating whether or not he was responsible for having suggested to Mr. Clifford Lloyd or Colonel Bruce the words which they should use in addressing the Constabulary Force at Limerick. He (Mr. Trevelyan) always endeavoured to follow what, to him, appeared to be the usual course of action—that was to say, in all matters of Executive action which required a knowledge of what was passing, and in a state of circumstances liable to daily and hourly change, he had always considered it proper to leave absolute freedom to the administrative officers on the spot. Any other course than that, whether with regard to civil or military administration, could only, in his opinion, result in confusion, and possibly danger. He had not suggested, either to Mr. Clifford Lloyd or to Colonel Bruce, words which they should use in addressing the Constabulary; as a matter of fact, he was not aware that Mr. Clifford Lloyd was going to address the men at all. With regard to that officer, although, as the hon. Member opposite said, he was not responsible for his appointment, he should certainly not give up his share in the consequences of that appointment, although it would be nothing less than wasting the time of the House to enter into an elaborate defence of Mr. Clifford Lloyd every time he was attacked. But with regard to the remarks which had been made with regard to him on the present occasion, he would suggest that hon. Members should reserve their judgment until Mr. Lloyd's explanation was forthcoming. He knew what were that officer's feelings with reference to the Force in Limerick, because he had a Report from him dated the 4th of July, 1882, in which, after stating that two threatening letters had been received in the district, and that no other outrages were reported, went on to say that the officers and men had toiled with the most unwavering energy for the last six months, and that it was no exaggeration to say that— Day after day, and night after night, in all weathers, they have patrolled every portion of the districts assigned to them; the same spirit influences them all; a more noble body of men never served their Sovereign. It was needless for him to comment upon this; he would, therefore, simply urge hon. Members to suspend their judgment until they were in possession of information as to what actually took place on Saturday afternoon. He felt some surprise that hon. Members should be unwilling that this stage of the Bill should be taken on that occasion. There had been already three debates upon the Bill, and throughout these he had noticed nothing that led him to believe that hon. Members were seriously anxious to alter the Bill in Committee.

MR. HEALY

We have had no time to put down Amendments.

MR. TREVELYAN

said, no observation or criticism upon the Bill had been put forward which led him to think there was any desire on the part of hon. Members seriously to object; and, under those circumstances, he appealed to the House to allow the Bill to go through Committee.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 6; Noes 64: Majority 58.—(Div. List, No. 320.)

Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant had informed the House that great inconvenience would result from the Bill being delayed; but it seemed to him that there would be much more inconvenience if it were hurried through the House. In the first place, Members who were interested in the maintenance of the Rules of Committee had not had an opportunity even of reading the Amendments to the Bill. He was informed that there were a number of Amendments which it was proposed to move; and it would, therefore, be of advantage that the House should be put in possession of those Amendments in their entirety. But there was another reason for deferring the Committee stage of the Bill. The measure would be considerably affected by the proposals which the Government might hereafter have to make in reference to the treatment of the Constabulary Force; and if they could come to some decision as to the way in which the claims of the Force were to be met, it would certainly be of great advantage in further considering the proposals in the Bill, because the Government might possibly find it desirable to introduce into a Bill of this kind certain provisions which at present it did not contain: whereas if the Bill were hurried through the House before the final decision of the Government was arrived at, it would not be possible to introduce another Bill that Session. For these reasons, and because it was now nearly 3 o'clock in the morning, he begged to move the adjournment of the House.

MR. BIGGAR

begged to second the Motion of the hon. Member for Queen's County. It was now 3 o'clock, and no one could reasonably ask to proceed in Committee with a Bill of this importance at that hour. To do so would be to preclude all reasonable discussion upon the important questions that were raised by the Bill. He thought that, out of consideration for themselves, and particularly those Members who wished their Amendments to be fairly discussed, the Motion of his hon. Friend should be agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)

MR. TREVELYAN

admitted that the arguments of hon. Members as to the lateness of the hour had a certain weight. They were, however, so close upon the end of the Session that none of the small portion of time at their disposal should be wasted; and, after the ample discussion which the Bill had undergone on previous occasions, he hoped the hon. Member for Queen's County would recognize the desirability of entering at least upon the Committee stage, and, when that was reached, the Government would be willing to postpone further discussion to another day.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee; Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.