HC Deb 07 August 1882 vol 273 cc966-73
MR. MOORE

rose to draw attention to the inadequate remuneration of Roman Catholic chaplains ministering to the Imperial Forces in India. The hon. Member represented that in every way the remuneration was cut down to the very lowest possible point, it being limited to actual service with the troops, and no allowance being granted when passing from one point to another, and neither furlough, pension, nor passage home being granted. It was objected that they did not serve continuously; but to give some idea of their services he mentioned that four chaplains had served 20 years in Bengal, five had served 25 years, and three had served 30 years, or a period of service which, in nearly every other Department of the State, would be recognized by some remuneration which would place the recipient beyond dependence. If the argument was used that these chaplains would continue to do the work whether paid or not, he would admit that that was the fact; but he did not think that an argument worthy of a great Government. In conclusion, he asked what provision had been made for the Roman Catholic soldiers in the Indian Contingent in Egypt?

MR. BLAKE

agreed with the hon. Member that the position of Roman Catholic chaplains in India was such as to call for improvement. When lately in India, he had devoted some time in investigating the grievances which the Catholic chaplains attached to the Army suffered under. In addition to communicating personally with a number of the chaplains, he had interviews on the subject with the Archbishop of Calcutta, the Bishops of Agra and Bombay, and the Vicar General of Madras. The complaints against the system might be classed under four heads—1. The absence of regular appointments, similar to the Protestant chaplains. 2. Inadequate pay. 3. No furloughs. 4. No pensions. Whilst the Catholic chaplains did, to say the least, fully as much work as the Protestant, there was not the same official recognition of them. The Protestants had often four times as much pay—never less than double—and were, besides, granted sick leave when they required it—and the usual periodic leave of absence, and, above all, were entitled to very liberal retiring pensions, after 17 years' service, amounting to £1 a-day—and for less service in proportion. The Catholic chaplain, out of his wretched allowance, if prevented by illness from attending temporarily to his duties, had to pay for a substitute, and was not allowed a day's leave of absence without his pay being stopped. No matter how long be served, how broken down he might be, and unfit for further clerical duties, no pension was granted to him. When he went into the field and served, as he often did, under fire, only half the "batta," or extra allowance, was granted to him that was granted to the Protestant chaplain. He (Mr. Blake) had seen some very aged Catholic chaplains, who had attended the troops for 30 years and upwards, who would be compelled, when unfit for further duty, to become the recipients of the charity of their Bishops. Fully half the European troops serving in India appeared to be Irish or of Irish parentage, and with few excep- tions were Catholics. Numbers of them and their wives had strongly complained to him that many of their chaplains could hardly speak English—they were nearly all Italians, French, or Belgians, or occasionally Portuguese. This arose from the Bishops, and most of the governing ecclesiastics, belonging to the four nationalities—and they naturally gave preference to their own countrymen. Some of the Italian priests were glad to get away to avoid the conscription, which did not respect their holy office, and were content to live on the most scanty allowance. Some of the priests were of the mixed or Eurasian race, and could subsist on much less than English or Irish priests. But foreigners, as a rule, could not in the way of instruction, or when attending the dying, administer as satisfactorily as the soldiers' own countrymen, and it was difficult to obtain them unless they were more liberally dealt with. One reason assigned for the much smaller pay given to the Catholic chaplain was that, as they had neither wives nor children, and did not indulge in the gaieties of society, they did not require so much pay. No doubt there was something in that; but only giving them a fourth as much was making too large an allowance for the cost of wives and children, and other social enjoyments, which the Catholic chaplains refrained from. The noble Marquess would also probably say, as some of his Predecessors had said before him, that the Catholic chaplains were not so much under the control of the military authorities as the Protestant, and that, therefore, the Government could not be expected to deal with them in the same way. Now, this objection had no practical weight. It was true that the Bishops insisted on having the chaplains under their control; but that was all the better for ecclesiastical purposes; and he had the assurance of the Bishops having the greatest number of military cantonments in their diocese, that they always endeavoured to carry out the suggestions of commanding officers with regard to the chaplains, and attended to every reasonable complaint, and never allowed, when it was practicable, the Catholic military to be without spiritual aid—although often at extra cost—as whilst the Protestant chaplain was allowed a carteblanche as regarded expenses in attending out stations to perform Divine ser- vice on Sundays, no matter how small the number of Protestant soldiers at them, the Catholic chaplain, if he attended, could only obtain his expenses if the soldiers attending Mass amounted to a certain number; and, rather than the soldiers should not have Mass, the priests frequently paid their expenses themselves. Apart from the extreme unfairness, it was most impolitic for the Government to allow the Catholic soldiers to see their clergy treated in an exceptionally unjust manner. England had to depend for the maintenance of her Indian Empire quite as much on the Catholic soldier as on the Protestant—indeed, rather more so, as the bulb of the Christian Native soldiers were Catholics. It was unworthy of the Government to try to escape paying the Catholic chaplains properly, and denying them the privileges given to the Protestant, as regarded furlough and pension, on the grounds usually advanced. As he had a strong belief in the sense of justice and the generous promptings of the present Secretary of State for India, he hoped to hear from him a more satisfactory reply to the hon. Member for Clonmel than those usually given by his Predecessors, when similar appeals had been made.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,

in reply, said, there had been a considerable amount of official Correspondence between the Government of India and the Home Government and persons interested in the question, which Correspondence was laid on the Table and printed. In consequence of the attention which was called to the subject at various times from 1872 to 1876, the Government of India, in 1876, made certain suggestions for the improvement of the condition of Roman Catholic chaplains in India. These proposals involved an additional cost of 85,000 rupees, the former amount expended on Roman Catholic chaplains in India, exclusive of the Bishops, having been 1 lakh and 62,000 rupees, which was thus raised to 2 lakhs and 48,000 rupees. Those proposals were accepted in their entirety by the then Secretary of State for India (Lord Salisbury); and, so far as he (the Marquess of Hartington) was aware, from that time to this there had been no official representation, nor representation of any other character, on the subject. Therefore, he was of opinion that what was done at that time had been considered fairly satisfactory to the Roman Catholic chaplains. He had not the slightest doubt, however, that any representations which might be made to the Government of India upon the subject would receive very careful consideration; and if they were of opinion that substantial injustice was being done, or hardship being inflicted, he thought they would not be indisposed to take steps with the view of effecting a remedy. The Government of India could hardly be expected to take the initiative, and to proceed to increase the salaries of these chaplains, until it was brought prominently and clearly before their notice that there was some grievance of which they were entitled to complain. The two hon. Members who had spoken had touched upon much the same points as were dwelt upon in the years to which he had referred. They had spoken of low pay, want of pension, and want of furlough, and had shown how, with respect to those three matters, the Roman Catholic chaplains were at a disadvantage when compared with Protestant chaplains. The fact was that there was no comparison whatever to be made between the Roman Catholic chaplains, who were not under the orders of the Government of India, and who only received a grant in aid, and the persons who were personally engaged by the Government, and were subject to its orders. The comparison could only fairly be made between two sets of chaplains serving under the same conditions. He did not understand that hon. Members were prepared to advocate putting Roman Catholic chaplains in the position of paid Government chaplains. Nor was he at all aware whether such a proposition would be acceptable to the heads of the Roman Catholic Church; but until that was done no comparison could be made as regarded pay and position between persons serving under totally different conditions. Supposing it were desired by the Roman Catholic authorities, the desirability of placing chaplains of that faith in the position of ordinary Government chaplains was certainly a fair subject for discussion. The right hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) had called the attention of the Government of India on more than one occasion to what he considered was the excessive provision by the Government of India for the re- ligious wants of Protestants, and the representations he had made were now under the consideration of the Government of India. They were considering whether it would not be possible to make some reduction in the establishment of Protestant chaplains, and perhaps the present was not, therefore, a favourable moment for opening the question of the creation of a new religious establishment. But, while no comparison between chaplains serving under totally different conditions could be made, it was a perfectly fair subject for discussion as to whether the remuneration given to the Roman Catholic chaplains by the grant in aid was sufficient for their proper maintenance. He was informed, as a matter of fact, that their remuneration did not compare unfavourably with that which was received by Roman Catholic clergy who were engaged in other duties. He thought, therefore, that there was no strong case made out for the increase of these grants; because no one could contend that it was the duty of the taxpayers of India to pay a larger price for the remuneration of the Roman Catholic chaplains than was sufficient to maintain the services of competent men when they were engaged on other duties. If it was suggested that this remuneration was absolutely inadequate, and if such suggestions were brought to his notice in any tangible form, he should be most happy to have these allegations examined into. He did not think that the Government of India could be accused of neglecting the subject, for no representations had hitherto been brought to their notice. The hon. Member for Clonmel had asked him if he could state what provision had been made for the religious necessities of Roman Catholic troops coming from India to Egypt? The only information the India Office had received was entirely telegraphic, and this was one of the details on which he was not yet able to give the House any information. He had no doubt, however, that it was a subject that had not been overlooked by the Government of India.

COLONEL NOLAN

maintained that the pay received by Roman Catholic clergymen ministering to the Forces in India was totally inadequate to keep them in the comfort necessary for their health in the climate of India. The fact was that the rate of pay for Roman Catholic clergy in India was lowered by the existence of a Roman Catholic Portuguese Colony. Those men had become acclimatized, and were able to live on a lower rate of pay than persons coming direct from Europe. They ought not to be satisfied until the Roman Catholic clergy were on an equality with the Protestant clergy. The present state of things was due to the influence exercised by the Established Church.

MR. MACFARLANE

said, the Government of India knew that such was the zeal of the Roman Catholic clergymen that they would work for nothing rather than let their people be neglected, and the Government had taken advantage of that zeal. He hoped they would be dealt with fairly and honestly. If the Government were not disposed to grant them pensions, he would suggest that their pay should be increased, leaving the pensions to be provided by themselves.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, he could bear testimony to the admirable manner in which the Roman Catholic chaplains discharged their duties. But he wished to point out that their salaries had of late years been very considerably raised. They were now, in his opinion, adequately paid, and he agreed with the noble Marquess that, as compared with other persons in similar positions, they were well paid. The real question, he thought, was not so much whether the salaries of the Roman Catholic chaplains should be increased, as whether the salaries of the Protestant chaplains should not be cut down.

MR. SEXTON

said, no one could complain of the general tone of the observations that had been made as to the manner in which the Roman Catholic chaplains discharged their duties, and he hoped their claims would receive due attention. Although they received only a quarter of the salary received by the Protestant chaplains, they had to perform the same duties. It was said that the Protestant chaplains were often married men, and, therefore, required larger salaries; but it seemed that they received the same salaries whether they were married or single. The objection that the Protestant chaplains were Government officials, whereas the Roman Catholics were not, was merely technical; and he hoped that the Government would not rely on such a technical plea as an excuse for not placing all the chaplains on an equal footing as regards salary.