COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 03 August 1882 vol 273 cc619-25

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 5 (Calling out army reserve in aid of the civil power).

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

said, the 3rd sub-section of the clause provided that the Lord Lieutenant should exercise the power of calling out the Army Reserve to aid the civil power in the preservation of the public peace, vested by the section in the Secretary of State. He wished to know what the powers of the Lord Lieutenant were in regard to the Army Reserve?

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, that under the late law the powers given to the Secretary of State in Great Britain were also given to the Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. A question had arisen whether, under the words of the 30 & 31 Vict. c. 110, s. 9, these powers were sufficiently explicit. It was considered doubtful whether, under that section, the power possessed by the Secretary of State would extend to Ireland; and the words contained in the 3rd section were inserted in order to make the matter perfectly clear?

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, there was one Question in connection with the calling out of the Reserves which he wished to put to the Government. He had put the Question a night or two ago, but had failed to elicit a satisfactory answer. Some years ago an alteration was made in the Regulations in reference to the rights of the Reserve Forces when called out for active service. Whereas, before that time, they had been allowed to count their service, in the Reserve, towards their good conduct pay and pension; their rights in that respect were taken away from them by the new Regulations. When a man enlisted, it was always the practice to supply him with a small book giving detailed explanations, shaped for his guidance, of the terms of service which he was under. One of the Regulations contained in that book stated that the Reserve men were to count their Reserve service towards their good conduct pay; and when an alteration in the Regulations was made recently, no change whatever was made in the instructions contained in these small books under which the men had been enlisted all over the country for many years. Therefore, the men naturally concluded, according to the terms contained in the books supplied to them, that they had full right to calculate their Reserve service towards their good conduct pay. When the Reserves were called out on the last occasion, it was found that a great grievance existed in almost every regiment in consequence of the military authorities having declined to sanction the issue of good conduct pay, as regulated by Reserve service. He asked the Government to make an inquiry as to the date on which proper information was issued to the recruits upon this point. If a man joined prior to the issue of direct information, he ought not to be refused the good conduct pay he had a right to calculate upon.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL. (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, he did not see under what part of the clause now under discussion the question could arise.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, it naturally arose on Clause 5 in regard to the calling out of the Reserves. There were certain Regulations in force as to the terms on which the Reserves were to be called out.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, he was afraid he was not in a position to answer the Question at the present moment.

SIR HENRY FLETCHER

said, he should be glad if the War Office would tell him, before the Session closed, how many men of the 1st battalion of the Army Reserve had had notices sent to them, and how many men had appeared in answer to their names? He did not press for the information now, because it was possible that even up to the last day the men might be coming in. It was, however, an important matter for the country, and it certainly would very greatly relieve his own mind, if a statement of these facts were made, because he had already heard a good deal about the Reserve, and he had himself expressed a fear that they would not come up when called on. It would, therefore, relieve his mind to a considerable extent, if he were informed before the Recess in what manner the men had answered to the call. He would also like to put one further Question to the military authorities in connection with these matters. He should like, before the House rose, to have some information as to the number of fraudulent enlistments which had taken place during the last 12 months? That was an important matter in connection with the calling out of the Reserves. He was of opinion that it would be ascertained that a great number of men belonging to the Army Reserve had fraudulently enlisted again in the Army on account of not being able to obtain civil employment, and not being in a condition to live on the Reserve pay allowed to them.

SIR ARTHUR HAYTER

said, that if his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Horsham (Sir Henry Fletcher) would address to him, or to the Secretary of State, a Question, before the House rose, he would be able to obtain all the detailed information in the possession of the War Office as to the manner in which the men had come up. Perhaps it would be sufficient to say now that they were coming up satisfactorily. A Report had been received from the Bristol district, in which it was stated that every man had appeared in answer to his name. It would not be necessary to move for a Return; but if his hon. and gallant Friend would put a Question, later on, he (Sir Arthur Hayter) would be glad to answer it.

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, that he would endeavour to obtain the information before the rising of the House.

COLONEL RUGGLES-BRISE

said, he hoped that the calling out of the Reserves at this moment would not be allowed to interfere with the harvest operations of the country. He wished to know if there was any objection to the same system being carried out now as was carried out at the time of the Crimean War, when those farmers who could not obtain a sufficient number of hands in their own neighbourhood to assist them in getting in the harvest, were allowed the services of the men who had joined the Reserves? If the necessity arose this year for any such assistance, would there be any objection to grant it?

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the question referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not come before the Committee upon the present Bill, and it would be better to mention the subject on Monday upon the Army Estimates.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 (Punishment of certain offences by Army Reserve men) agreed to.

Clause 7 (Men exempt from parish offices, &c).

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

said, that, under this clause, a man belonging to the Army Reserve was not to he liable to serve the office of constable, or any other parochial, township, or borough office. But it was very well known that Army Reserve men were serving in the Police Forces all over the country. He would, therefore, ask this question—Whether it was not true that the Army Reserve men, to a very large number, were now in the Metropolitan Police Force; and whether they had been called upon to join their regiments at once? He had heard that there were in the Police Force of the country a very large number as well as in the Metropolitan Police Force. Was that so or not?

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

was afraid that he was not in a position at present to answer that question. Clause 7 merely continued the present laws—the 30 & 31 Vict. c. 110, s. 17, and the 33 & 34 Vict. c. 77, s. 9.

COLONEL STANLEY

said, his hon. and gallant Friend ought to be aware that the clause had nothing to do with the local Police Force. When the Reserves were called out on a previous occasion, a difficulty arose in regard to the men who were serving in the Police Force of the country, not only in the Metropolis, but also in the various Municipal Police Forces of the country. Representations were made to the public bodies by which these men were employed, and there was a general agreement to keep open their places and allow these men to return to their employment in the Police Force when their services were no longer required in the Reserve.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 8 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 13 (Assembly of Parliament when reserve forces ordered to be called out on permanent service).

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, he had stated on Saturday that this Bill was purely a Consolidation Bill; but he had forgotten to say that there was a new provision in the measure—namely, the 13th clause, which provided that when the Reserve Forces were ordered to be called out, Parliament should be assembled within 10 days after they were called out on permanent service. The object of that provision was to assimilate the law in respect to the Reserves to that in force in regard to the Militia.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 14 to 16, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Punishment for inducing reserve man to desert or absent himself).

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, he had an Amendment to propose in the 2nd sub-section, to insert the words "as if," instead of "to," in line 9, and to strike out the words "in like manner as if such man," in lines 9 and 10. The sub-section would then read that— Section 152 of the Army Act, 1881, shall apply as if a man belonging to the Army or Militia Reserve were a soldier," &c. The clause was intended to apply to any person who, by any means whatsoever, procured or persuaded a man belonging to the Army or Militia Reserve to be absent without leave or to desert.

Amendment proposed, in page 8, line 9, leave out "to," and insert "as if."—(Mr. Osborne Morgan.)

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

asked whether the clause would read intelligibly if the proposed alteration were made?

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

said, the second Amendment must be taken in conjunction with the first, and then, instead of the section applying to a man belonging to the Army or Militia Reserve in like manner as if such man were a soldier, it would apply in any case in which a man belonging to the Army or Militia Reserve had been prevented or persuaded to be absent without leave or to desert, just as if he had been a soldier.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed, in page 8, line 9, leave out from "reserve" to "were," in line 10.—(Mr. Osborne Morgan.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 18 to 24, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 25 (Trial of offences).

THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)

moved, in page 11, line 36, after the word "shall," insert "notwithstanding anything contained in any other Act." It was provided by the Metropolitan Police Act that the Court should always have power in any case, notwithstanding the provisions of any other Act, to fix the minimum amount of fine or term of imprisonment; and the object of the Amendment was to provide that the amount of fine or term of imprisonment should be duly observed by the Courts of Summary Jurisdiction, and should not be reduced by way of mitigation or otherwise, notwithstanding any provision contained in any other Act.

Amendment proposed, in page 11, line 36, after "shall," insert "notwithstanding anything contained in any other Act."—(Mr. Osborne Morgan.)

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 26 to 28, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 29 (Repeal of Acts).

On the Motion of the JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL, Amendment made, in page 13, line 35, by inserting, at end— Where a proclamation has been issued, or any man belonging to the Army or Militia Reserve has been called out before the commencement of this Act, this Act shall apply as if such proclamation had been issued, and men called out in pursuance of this Act.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.