HC Deb 01 August 1882 vol 273 cc378-86

Bill, as amended, considered.

Clause 9 (Qualification of burgess).

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 18, after the word "resided," to insert the words "as lodger or otherwise."—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he opposed the Amendment on the ground that this was a Consolidation Bill, and that it was not usual to introduce important changes into such measures.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. BIGGAR

moved to leave out lines 23 to 26 inclusive. The effect of his proposal would be to remove al-cause of complaint against the rate-collectors, who, as things were, were appointed by the dominant Party in the borough, and were sometimes unduly partial to their political friends.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 23, to leave out sub-section (E.)—Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he could not accept the Amendment for the reasons that he had already stated.

MR. DODDS

also opposed the Amendment.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that there were many precedents for the amendment of Consolidation Bills. The complaint of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) was perfectly just; and it was the fact that rate-collectors, unless they were impartial, often omitted to remind electors that their rates were due until the fatal day after which they would lose the right of voting. This proceeding affected the Liberal and Conservative Parties less than the ill-organized Irish voters.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 11 (Qualification of councillor).

Mr. BIGGAR

moved to leave out sub-section (C), in order to abolish the property qualification for candidates, which was often evaded under the present law.

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 8, to leave out sub-section (C.)—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. HIBBERT

said, that the hon. Member misapprehended the effect of the clause. The property qualification was done away with by an Act passed some years ago; but the original money qualification was retained, because powers had been given to enable Town Councillors or Aldermen to live beyond seven miles of the borough. They were told that it would not be safe to repeal it, unless some other provision were made to meet the case of Councillors living within the seven and 15 miles' limit from the borough.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 12 (Disqualifications for being Councillor).

MR. BIGGAR

said, he proposed to move an Amendment to this clause with a view of preventing members of Town Councils from making contracts with the Corporation of which they were members. It was evident that a number of members might combine each to get a lease of corporate property, and thus the ratepayers might be cheated to a very large amount.

Amendment proposed, In page 5, line 39, to leave out all the words after the word "lease," to the word "or," in line 40, in order to insert the words "granted before the election of such Councillor,"—(Mr. Biggar,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. HIBBERT

would not say that no abuse might arise under the clause. Probably there might. At the same time, he was not aware that any great complaints, or that any complaints, had been made as to the operation of the law at the present time. He might also point out that, in a subsequent clause, ample security was taken that members of Town Councils should not take part in discussing or voting upon any matter in which they had a pecuniary interest. If this Amendment were adopted, a Town Councillor or Alderman would be prevented from selling to the Corporation a piece of land, the acquisition of which might be of great public benefit. He hoped, under the circumstances, the Amendment would not be pressed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 46 (The burgess roll and ward rolls).

MR. BIGGAR

proposed to amend this clause by striking out, in page 18, line 13, "twenty-second," in order to insert "eighteenth," with the object of giving a longer period than nine days to prepare for a municipal election.

Amendment proposed, In page 18, line 13, to leave out the words "twenty-second," in order to insert the word "eighteenth,"—(Mr. Biggar,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words, 'twenty-second' stand part of the Bill."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he would suggest that the word "twentieth" should be substituted for "twenty-second" in the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, In page 18, line 13, to leave out the words "twenty-second," in order to insert the -word "twentieth,"—(Mr. Biggar,) —instead thereof.

Question, "That the words "twenty-second" stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

The word "twentieth" inserted.

On the Motion of Mr. HIBBERT, Amendments made, in page 18, line 17, by leaving out after "numbered," to "numbered," inclusive, in line 19; and in line 20,Rafter "districts," by inserting— Unless in any case the council direct that the same he numbered consecutively without reference to wards or polling districts.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 47 (Arrangement of list of rolls).

Amendment proposed, in page 19, line 4, to leave out sub-section (2) of Clause 47.—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 59 (Mode of conducting poll at contested election).

MR. BIGGAR

said, he rose to move an Amendment providing for the extension of the hours of polling from 4 till 8 o'clock. He contended that this extension of time would enable working men to record their vote without the renunciation of any part of the day's wages.

Amendment proposed, In page 21, line 18, to leave out the word "four," in order to insert the word "eight,"—(Mr. Biggar.) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the word 'four' stand part of the Bill.

MR. HIBBERT

said, he could not accept the Amendment. Next year the Bill, which, if passed this Session, would have altered the hours of polling in Parliamentary and municipal elections, would, he hoped, be re-introduced. That being so, he thought they should be content to wait, so that they might deal with the subject as a whole, and not in a fragmentary manner. There were, he would add, for the information of the hon. Member, a number of places where it would be quite unnecessary to keep the poll open until 8 o'clock, as the poll was generally over in those places by 2 o'clock.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he should support the Amendment. He failed to see why the Government should not make the change asked for, when it was known that many working men desirous of voting were unable to do so because the poll closed at 4 o'clock.

MR. DODDS

said, he should oppose the Amendment. He had 30 years' experience of municipal elections in the town which he represented, and during the whole of that period working men had been able to record their votes without any difficulty. If the closing hour were changed from 4 to 8, serious inconvenience and much increased expenditure would be caused in many cases.

MR. SEXTON

said, that, by the law closing the poll at 4 o'clock, many working men were excluded from the exercise of the municipal franchise, for if they voted they must leave work at an earlier hour than usual, and thus lose a quarter or more of their customary pay. The fact that a larger change than that at present proposed was looming in the distance was no argument against the proposal to make a smaller change now.

MR. STOREY

said, that, by closing the poll at 4 o'clock, they imposed a tax upon the working classes which other classes had not to bear. A working man was, under the present system, if he wanted to vote, obliged to sacrifice either his dinner hour or his pay for the time that he lost in going to the poll; whereas, if the hours were extended, the same result would be attained without putting the electors to unnecessary expense. He feared, however, that if the poll were kept open from 9 A.M. to 8 P.M., a considerable time would be wasted in the middle of the day. Still, this would be better than the present scrambling system. It would be advantageous if the principle of school board elections were observed in municipal contests.

MR. WARTON

said that this was merely a Consolidation Bill, and that such a change in the law as was proposed could not properly be introduced into the present Bill.

MR. HINDE PALMER

said, he could not vote for the Amendment, because it laid down a hard-and-fast line, which was most objectionable. If the hours were to be extended at all, he would suggest that a clause should be introduced into the Bill giving a discretionary power to the local authorities to fix the hours of polling, both in Parliamentary and municipal elections, in accordance with local convenience.

MR. O'DONNELL

supported the Amendment, as he wished to give the working classes a grip upon the municipal authorities, so as to control them in carrying out those sanitary and other improvements which were so necessary to their happiness and welfare.

MR. WHITLEY

said, that there was a large number of working men in Liverpool to whom he should be glad to give increased facilities for recording their municipal votes, by increasing the discretion of Returning Officers, if this were a proper time for discussing the subject; but as it was distinctly understood that this Bill was to be passed as a Consolidation Bill, it was most inopportune to raise the question now.

SIR EARDLEY WILMOT

suggested that the Government should compromise the matter by consenting to substitute "six" for "eight" o'clock. That would afford time to the working man to poll on leaving his work at 5 P.M., without the disadvantage which would ensue from keeping the poll open until the evening.

MR. HIBBERT

said he could not accept "six" any more than he could accept "eight," If he were to accept any alteration, it would be "eight" o'clock

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 162; Noes 37: Majority 125.—(Div. List, No. 808.)

Clause agreed to.

Clause 78 (Definitions).

Mr. FIRTH

proposed, in page 26, line 16, at beginning, to insert— The provisions of this Part shall he held to apply to Municipal Elections in connection with the Corporation of the City of London. The hon. Member said, that the fourth part of the Bill applied solely to corrupt practices at municipal elections, and was practically an embodiment of the Corrupt Practices Act of 1872, which passed without discussion, and in it the word "boroughs" applied to boroughs scheduled under the Municipal Corporations Act, and for some reason the City of London did not appear. There never had been any controlling measure with reference to corrupt practices at municipal elections in the City of London, and they flourished unchecked. Monetary rather than patriotic considerations often guided many electors at the few elections that took place in London. He did not know what plea could be offered on the part of the City for the retention of powers of corruption not permitted to Corporations in the country. It might be asked—what was the advantage of his proposal at the present time? Well, he should be glad for once to have one pure election in the City of London; and it might be expected that if elections in the City were purified, there would be an elected body more favourably inclined to consider the advantage of a reformed City government. If there were a chance of such an election, he knew several men who would become candidates for Wards in the City, who would not do so under the present system of election. He was justified, on behalf of the people of London, who had long enough had amongst them this nest of corruption, in asking that the House should do something to purify their municipal centre, as other Corporations had been purified in the country.

Amendment proposed, In page 26, line 16, at beginning, insert "The provisions of this Part shall be held to apply to Municipal Elections in connection with the Corporation of the City of London."—(Mr. Firth.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HIBBERT

said, that, without going into the merits of the case, he held that the present Amendment was out of place, seeing that none of the Acts consolidated by the Bill referred to the City of London. Besides, the 6th clause of the Bill, which was already passed, made it impossible to extend the operation of the measure. At the same time, he sympathized with the hon. and learned Member's desire to have the elections for the City of London rendered as pure as they were in any other part of the country; and if he brought in a Bill for that purpose alone he should give him his support.

MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWRENCE

said, that the Amendment had been moved without a hope or thought of success; but simply in order that the hon. and learned Member might make reckless, unscrupulous, and unfounded attacks on the Corporation of the City of London.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said, he could not see anything reckless or unscrupulous in the action of his hon. and learned Friend, who had stated a fact which almost everybody—except Aldermen—admitted—namely, that there was the grossest corruption in the City of London. The hon. Alderman declined to meet him on that point; but the corruption was proved from the fact that it had been necessary in passing Acts against Municipal Corporations to leave out the City of London on the ground that this House could not cope with this Alsatia of corruption. He hoped, however, the Amendment would not be pressed, because, after what had fallen from the Secretary to the Local Government Board, the issue would not be fairly put before the House, and it would be boasted in the City that a victory had been gained against the hon. and learned Member, and that the House had declared there was no corruption in the City.

MR. SPEAKER

ruled that, having regard to the statement of the application of the Act in the 6th clause, the Amendment was inadmissible.

MR. FIRTH

said, that, after the ruling of the Chair, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 88 (Power to question municipal election).

Amendment proposed, In page 29, lines 25 and 26, to leave out the words "of those grounds," in order to insert the word "ground,"—(Mr. Warton,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words 'of those grounds' stand part of the Bill."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 122 (Obligations and powers in respect of advowsons, &c).

MR. BIGGAR

moved to strike out certain words giving Corporations the right to sell their Church patronage. He thought the next two clauses ought to be struck out.

Amendment proposed, in page 46, line 37, to leave out sub-section (1) of Clause 122.—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he also had great doubt whether these clauses ought not to be omitted. But as they were the old law, and were in the Act of 1835, and as there was no certainty that cases did not exist to which they would apply, he thought, as a matter of caution, it was better to retain them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 163 (The recorder).

On the Motion of Mr. HIBBERT, Amendment made in page 65, line 37, by leaving out after "State," to end of paragraph, and inserting "without the resignation and re-appointment of the recorder being necessary."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 168 (Power of recorder to form a second court).

On the Motion of Mr. HIBBERT, Amendment made in page 67, line 18, by leaving out "five," and inserting "three."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 220 (Exclusion of certiorari).

Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 220.—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question, "That Clause 220 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Amendment made.

Clause agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Hibbert.)

MR. DODDS

said, he must congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having passed into law a measure that had been before Parliament for 10 years; that would consolidate 40 existing Acts, and portions of other Acts, and would be of the greatest possible assistance to everyone connected with Municipal Corporations.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.