SECOND READING. (Hansard, 24 April 1882)

§ MR. BARRAN
, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he did not forget that in the very able speech which was delivered by the President of the Board of Trade during last Session upon Bankruptcy Law the right hon. Gentleman foreshadowed a Bill which was of very great national importance; and it was in no spirit of opposition to the measure of the right hon. Gentleman that he now asked the House to read this Bill a second time. The Bill was promoted by the Associated Chambers of Commerce; it was approved of by all the Chambers of Commerce in England; and he might also state that the Association of Bankers, 1367 Merchants, and Traders of the United Kingdom had passed a resolution supporting almost fully the Bill which he now moved should be read a second time. This was a question which affected the whole trading community of the Three Kingdoms, and it was one which demanded the attention of Parliament. They had been promised, from time to time, that a Bill should be introduced meeting the requirements of the Chambers of Commerce; but unfortunately the state of the Business of the House had been such as to preclude the possibility of the President of the Board of Trade introducing his Bill. Those hon. Gentlemen whose names were at the back of the Bill now under consideration were not at all anxious to in any way intercept the President of the Board of Trade. On the contrary, if the right hon. Gentleman would consent to the second reading of the Bill to-night, they would be quite disposed to postpone the Committee stage until such reasonable time as the President of the Board of Trade might wish to be allowed him for the purpose of introducing his own Bill. There were very considerable questions involved, which traders deemed of the utmost importance. They had known in the past what had been the very serious objection to too much officialism. The trading community generally were anxious to avoid undue officialism, and this Bill proposed to give to the creditors such power that they might have both the responsibility and direction in matters which affected very largely their own interests. At that late hour (1.10) he did not think it right to go into any particulars as to the merits of the Bill; but he asked the House to read the Bill a second time, in order that they, as Representatives of large commercial interests, might take up a position befitting them when the President of the Board of Trade should see fit, and have the opportunity of bringing forward the measure which he foreshadowed during the last Session of Parliament.

§ MR. CHAMBERLAIN
said, he was sorry he could not assent to the proposition which had just been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (Mr. Barran); and he thought that, upon con- 1368 sideration, the hon. Member would feel it was hardly fair or reasonable to ask the House of Commons to commit itself to the principle of a Bill on so important a subject as the present at that late hour. The hon. Member had said that, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, he did not feel justified in trespassing upon the House; and, consequently, the House had not had the advantage of hearing any explanation of the clauses of the Bill, or of the general principle it proposed to carry into law. If they passed the second reading with the assent of the Government they would be committed to the principle of the Bill. He could not undertake to pledge the Government to the Bill. It was an extremely inadequate measure for dealing with a great subject; and if he thought the present a fair opportunity he should explain to the House that there were many objectionable features of the Bill which would tend to increase the scandals of the existing system rather than remove them. His hon. Friend talked about the importance of the creditors possessing the power to prevent anything like extensive officialism. The present Bill would tend to sustain the system under which there had been a quasi-official management; but there was no efficient supervision to prevent abuse. Officials of the Trade Protection Societies had, in many cases, had the management of bankrupt estates; and the control, if properly looked after, answered well. Of course, in some cases there had been great abuse. He supposed it was of no use to ask his hon. Friend to withdraw the Bill; and, therefore, it was his duty to move that the debate be adjourned. If his hon. Friend would take another, and a fitting opportunity, he should be glad that his Bill should be discussed. He hoped he would be able, at a later period of the Session, to introduce the Bill, which was promised in the Queen's Speech, for dealing with the subject. In that case he supposed it might be the pleasure of the House to refer the Bill to a Grand Committee, if the proposal for Grand Committees on Trade and Commerce should meet with the approval of the House; and he should not see any objection to the Bill of his hon. Friend, as well as any other Bill dealing with the same subject, going before the same Committee. That, however, should only be done after the House had had a 1369 full opportunity of discussing the principle of the Bill on the second reading. He would move that the debate be now adjourned.

§ MR. EDWARD CLARKE
said, there was an ominous tone in the right hon. Gentleman's voice when he spoke of the prospect of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barran) getting another opportunity for discussing the Bill. The President of the Board of Trade said it would be his duty to move the adjournment of the debate; but if his hon. Friend could get another opportunity of bringing forward the Bill, possibly he might enter into the merits of the measure. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that this was a late hour to discuss matters of this kind; but the opportunities that private Members had of bringing in Bills was so very limited that they were glad to avail themselves of any that presented themselves. The President of the Board of Trade might have shown a little more respect to the opinions of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and to the other commercial bodies in the country, than to dismiss in so cavalier a fashion a Bill which had their unanimous support. The right hon. Gentleman said the Bill contained many mischievous provisions, not one of which he had condescended to point out to the House. The right hon. Gentleman said the Bill would continue the present officialism, and then he said the officialism was that of the Trade Protection Society. If no other measure could be passed this year—and there was very little hope that the right hon. Gentleman himself would be able to pass any measure this year on the Law of Bankruptcy—if no other measure than this were passed, and if this measure contained but one of its clauses, it would be an enormous advance and improvement in the Bankruptcy Law of the country. If only that section of the present Act which allowed liquidation by arrangement could be repealed, it would be of great service to trade. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not persist in his Motion for Adjournment. He had said that ultimately he would be prepared to consent to this Bill being submitted to the same Select or Grand Committee as the Bill he 1370 hoped to shortly bring forward. The Bill now under consideration would, before it could be referred to a Committee, have to be read a second time. It would not be fair to adjourn this debate and allow the right hon. Gentleman to bring in his Bill, with all the advantage of the Government authority for the arrangement of matters in the House, and very probably leave the hon. Member (Mr. Barran), and the other hon. Gentlemen who were acting with him, in the position of being unable to bring their Bill on again; and, therefore, precluded from having it submitted to the same tribunal as the Government measure. He hoped a division would be taken on the question of adjournment.

§ MR. MONK
regretted to hear the President of the Board of Trade speak in so doubtful a manner as to the probability of his being able to introduce his own Bill on this subject this Session. The right hon. Gentleman was as well aware as they were that the commercial community were looking anxiously for some move on the part of the right hon. Gentleman; and he (Mr. Monk) and others had heard very serious complaints that the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman had not been brought in before this, and circulated in the country. The Bill which had been brought in by his hon. Friend had been carefully considered by the Associated Chambers of Commerce. It was an amending Bill; it was a Bill amending the Act of 1869. His right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade intended to bring in a Bill entirely repealing that Act, and altering materially the Law of Bankruptcy; still, as that Bill was in embryo, and as they did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would be able to introduce it at all this Session, he hoped the House would not refuse the second reading of the Bill of the hon. Member for Leeds. As the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth (Mr. Edward Clarke) had said, the Bill must be read a second time before it could be sent to a Committee. He must confess he had very serious doubts whether the Grand Committee of which his right hon. Friend had spoken would ever come to anything. At all events, the Bankruptcy Bill would not pass into law, if it had to be sent to a Grand Committee, this Session. Under the circumstances, his hon. Friend was quite entitled to go to a division.