HC Deb 21 April 1882 vol 268 cc1111-30
MR. GIBSON

, in rising to call attention to Cooper's Hill College; and to move— That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the working and expense of Cooper's Hill College, and to report if it is desirable, for the public service, to retain the present system, or whether any and, if so, what changes and modifications should be made, said, it was not his desire to make any charges against the managers of the Institution; but it had been in full working order for 11 years, and that time ought to have furnished enough experience to justify the inquiry whether the system with which the College was identified was worth its cost; whether it was necessary for the Public Service; and whether there was any well-founded objection to some return to a system of public competition? It was in November, 1869, that the Duke of Argyll, who was then Secretary of State for India, determined to establish the College, and that determination was arrived at without any communication whatever with the then Government of India, or with the Institution of Civil Engineers. The system at that time in existence was inaugurated by Lord Stanley, the present Earl of Derby, who introduced free competition for the purpose of procuring Civil Engineers for the Indian Service. Before the foundation of the College the Civil Engineers were only given subordinate positions, and their pay was comparatively low. How they were treated might be inferred from a statement of Sir Andrew Clarke, who was a Member of the Governor General's Council, and who, in a Minute, dated 1877, said it was impossible to suggest that Civil Engineers had failed to satisfy the requirements of the Civil Service, because they had never been fairly tried, as they were only appointed at small pay to the position of third-grade Civil Engineers; whereas the Cooper's Hill gentlemen at once received more than double the pay of the Stanley Engineers, and were placed in a much higher grade. When the Government of India did hear of the determination of the Duke of Argyll to establish the College, they certainly did not express anything which could be construed into approval. They said they considered the success of such a College must be a matter of very great uncertainty; that it must be regarded entirely as an experiment; and that they had great doubt whether any real necessity existed for it. They felt it incumbent on them to express their strong sense of the inexpediency of adopting measures that should lead to the creation of a class of engineers for the service of India; and they believed that such an Institution would be open to condemnation if it were not conducted on a self-supporting basis. The Institution of Civil Engineers—an Institution deservedly esteemed—expressed the opinion that in the proposed College the minds of the pupils would be moulded in the same form, and that their training would develop none of the emulation, independence, and originality of resource which had produced the best engineers. It was a grave decision for the Duke of Argyll to take—to destroy the system introduced by his Predecessor, and to substitute that of Coopers' Hill College. Notwithstanding this, however, the College was established, and from 1871 it had enjoyed a practical monopoly in engineering appointments in India over all the other Engineering Institutions. It was said that in India the Civil Engineers were given the hard work to do, and that the Royal Engineers took the honours and the higher pay. But he was not going into that ground of jealousy between the two branches of the Profession. It was, he maintained, exceedingly unfair on the other Institutions, and on the Universities which had established Engineering Schools, to exclude from the possibility of serving on Indian Public Works many young men—not because they were not qualified, not because they had not a valuable engineering diploma, but because they had not happened to pass through the portals of Cooper's Hill College. From a Return which had been kindly granted, at his instance, by the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India, he gathered that in 1878 the expenditure was £20,427, and the receipts £18,254; thus showing a loss to the Exchequer of something over £2,000. If, however, they looked at the results of the following years, they would find that the loss increased, and that in 1880–1, against an expenditure of £19,812, they only had receipts to the amount of £15,226, or nearly double the loss of the previous year. Thus, so far from the Institution being self-supporting, as was the intention of its original promoters, it was carried on at an absolute loss to the nation; and he was not aware that this increased cost in any way meant increased efficiency, for in 1879 there were only 37 admissions, in 1880 only 25, and in 1881, under a new scheme, 39. But these figures were the more startling when it was remembered that Cooper's Hill had practically the monopoly of all the Indian appointments, with the exception of those which were given to the Royal Engineers. In 1879, 41 public appointments were conferred upon the students, though the entrances of students only amounted to 37. This showed that every young man who entered the College was perfectly sure of getting an appointment of more or less value. This was borne out by the figures in the following years. In 1880 there were 25 entrances, and 38 appointments were given. In 1881 there were 39 entrances, and 35 public appointments were granted. A letter had been sent to him, written by Colonel Chesney, formerly the Governor of the Institution. In that letter, which was dated December 12, 1881, the writer said that Cooper's Hill did not profess to turn out practical engineers, but merely to educate its students to be engineers. That being so, was it wise to exclude from the benefits conferred upon the students of the College the students of other Engineering Schools, where proper technical knowledge was acquired? It was a serious thing to support a College which did not profess to give that which might be obtained from a system of competition—namely, a quality of practicality, possessing which engineers could go to work at once without having to pass through a period of probation. It should be observed that, under the present system, applicants for admission to the College were not subjected to competitive examination. Their admission depended solely upon priority of application, so that the monopoly and advantages of the College were conferred upon boys according to that priority. It was true that there were examinations at the end of the students' career; but the way in which the examination was conducted was very remarkable. It did not profess to be more than a pass-exa- mination; and the only element of competition was this—that the pass students were ranged in order of merit, so that those who were at the head of the list were given the first vacant appointments. As he had shown, however, there was really an appointment for each young man who passed. He could not see why the advantages of the Indian Public Service should not be given to other students than those educated at the College; and how could it be for the advantage of the Government in India to deprive it of the services of the best engineer students that the Empire could supply? The only examination conducted at the College, which had any of the competitive element in it, being that held at the close of the students' career, why should not the students of other recognized Engineering Schools be permitted to present themselves at that examination, and run their chance against the young men from Cooper's Hill? Why the 50 young men received at Cooper's Hill by priority of application should have the preference as regarded Indian appointments over all other comers, however well-qualified, he did not understand. It did not seem to him to be a position which could be logically defended. He, therefore, begged to move his Resolution.

MR. CARBUTT

, in seconding the Motion, said, he thought the matter was one of very great importance, and was one which would largely affect numbers of Civil Engineers, both in this country and in India. It seemed that the Duke of Argyll had made up his mind that he was not able to obtain engineers in this country fit to go out to India and do the work. He had made up his mind without consultation with the authorities in India, and had then determined that the best thing to do was to establish this College. Considerable objections were raised against the scheme at the time of its institution by the then Governor General of India (Lord Mayo), who wrote on the 28th March, 1870 (No. 43, Public Works), to his Grace the Duke of Argyll a strong letter giving his views as to the establishment of this College. In discussing the grade in which Civil Engineers trained in the proposed College should enter the Public Works Department on arrival in India, the following statement occurred:— The pay proposed for this grade in the scheme lately transmitted is £420 per annum. This sum, we believe, is not too much to offer young men trained as Civil Engineers, and we are disposed to consider that it is owing to the insufficiency of the present salary offered to the young Civil Engineers on first entering on their duties in India—namely, £240 per annum—that the failure to fill the appointments in the Public Works Department offered for competition has been mainly due. We are much inclined to think that if this increase of salary were now offered, it would have a marked effect on the supply of candidates under the existing system. We leave it to your Grace to determine whether such an experiment might properly he made before the opening of the proposed College. Clearly showing that the noble Lord thought the question of obtaining qualified engineers was merely one of pounds, shillings, and pence. There could be no doubt that, in consequence of the low charge for entrance, and the excellence of the course of instruction furnished by the College, the students who passed through it gained enormous advantages over other engineers; and he contended that if the Government had been prepared at the time the College was founded to pay a proper price, they would have got any number of men to go out and do their work. With regard to the question of expense, during the past 11 years the Engineering College had cost £317,000, against which there was only to show in the shape of receipts £148,000. Yet the public works in India executed by the Cooper's Hill students compared unfavourably with similar works in this country—railways, canals, harbours, &c.—the constructors of which had no exceptional advantages, but were obtained by a process of natural selection. It was calculated that the Cooper's Hill students were turned out at a cost to the country of about £321 per head. This was an enormous sum of money for the country to be paying for each pupil who went out to India, without the slightest knowledge of civil engineering, and without any practical experience except what he might have obtained from books. The system was radically bad, and, like the example of the Ponts et Chaussées in France, showed the folly of creating a close corporation in this country with the object of foisting a mushroom growth of engineers upon the Indian Service. The least the Government could do, under the circumstances, was to assent to the proposed inquiry.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the working and expense of Cooper's Hill College, and to report if it is desirable, for the public service, to retain the present system, or whether any and, if so, what changes and modifications should be made,"—(Mr. Gibson,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

earnestly hoped the noble Marquess would favourably consider the proposal of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. In support of that recommendation he spoke strongly as to its failure, seeing that the College had not been carried on on the principles on which it was first established. He had very much regretted that the Government of India should have hampered itself with such an expensive establishment, because a small part of the money laid out would have enabled the Schools of Engineering in the Kingdom to have supplied fit persons for service in India. But the important point on which he urged the noble Marquess to consider the proposal was this—that in spite of the recommendations of the Governor General the College had been instituted. The prudent counsels of Lord Mayo, who was himself a thoroughly practical man, had been set at nought, and the forecasts which he had made had turned out to be quite correct, the College having failed to turn out engineers of the quality and kind that the Government of India required. The expenses had also far exceeded the amount which was calculated at the time. So far from the original estimate of the cost of each student being adhered to, if the averages were made up properly the cost would be brought up to £300 per student. indeed, by the bad mode of stating the annual amount of the charges of the College, the average was as high as £500 per student actually passed out; and this was a net sum after deducting the receipts. These averages were to be contrasted with the estimated cost of £1,850 for 50 trained engineers, or only £37 per student. When the Duke of Argyll first proposed the College, he said there would be no unnecessary expenditure; and yet, within a few months, £58,000 had been spent in acquiring the property; and the whole amount of capital invested in the building and land, was £119,000. A very considerable profit had been obtained by the persons from whom the property had been purchased; and that profit, he had reason to believe, had been made in consequence of information furnished to the sellers. The capital account being mixed up with the ordinary annual charge was open to objection. The interest on that capital account ought to be a part of the annual current expenditure. But, by the mode in which the statement was made out, this liability was omitted. It was also worthy of notice that the purpose of the College had been changed. Instead of being an exclusive Training School for India, it had become one for the whole Empire; and this was entirely foreign to the work which India had to perform. Then, when the College was established, its course of study had no reference to any practical training, and nothing in the way of practical training was done for several years. In 1877–8, however, the sum of £2,552 was spent for the purpose of giving the students who had passed through the College the practical training outside the College which the College failed to give them; and in the following year £4,967 was spent for this purpose, while in 1879–80 the sum of £8,028 was spent for conferring practical experience. If the sum paid in the upkeep of Cooper's Hill establishment had been spent in encouraging the various Engineering Institutions throughout the country, it would have done a great deal more good.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, he had no complaint to make of the spirit and tone in which that Motion had been brought forward. Nor was it at all his intention to argue that no Parliamentary Inquiry into the working of the College, and also into the system of recruitment for the Public Works Department in India, would be desirable. All he now wished to do was to offer to the House a few observations in order to show, as he thought he would be able to show, that a Parliamentary Inquiry, such as was asked for, would, at the present time, be premature, and was therefore undesirable. The speech of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) had covered somewhat wider ground than the terms of the Motion. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had only moved for a Select Committee— To inquire into the working and expense of Cooper's Hill College, and to report if it is desirable, for the public service, to retain the present system, or whether any and, if so, what changes and modifications should be made. An inquiry of that nature might very easily be understood, and he confessed that he had understood it as being limited to an inquiry into the working of Cooper's Hill College and the present system in force there. But he gathered from the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he wished to cover a much larger ground—namely, whether the recruitment of the Public Works Department in India was practically to be confined in future to the students of Cooper's Hill College; or whether the system of open competition was to be reverted to? Now, the wider scope given to the Motion by that speech increased his objection to granting the Committee at the present time; for he could not help seeing that such an inquiry at this moment, when the College had only been in operation for 11 years, and under the new and revised system not for one year, would be almost fatal to the prospects of the Institution. To revert to the principle of open competition might possibly at some future time be necessary; but to revert to it at present, when Cooper's Hill College, under the existing system, was absolutely in its infancy, would deal a fatal blow to the future of the establishment; and he must say that would be scarcely justified at the present time. He was scarcely concerned to defend the original institution of the College. The reasons which prevailed with the Duke of Argyll and the Council of India at that time were before the House. No doubt, it was alleged now that an adequate supply of engineers might be obtained for India by open competition; but certainly it was not conceived at that time that an adequate supply was forthcoming. The appointments were thrown open; but the result of the examination was that so few candidates presented themselves that it could not be really called open competition—in fact, almost all who presented themselves obtained appointments. It was said, indeed, that that fact was owing to the insufficiency of the pay and the prospects held out. That argument, however, was hardly borne out; because as soon as Cooper's Hill College was constituted a number of students did offer themselves, although they had to undergo a long course of training and had to pay considerably for it. [Mr. GIBSON: Better pay.] He was not altogether acquainted with the figures; but he understood that originally the inducements offered to students were very much the same as those previously offered by open competition. It was, however, suggested that they might revert to open competition in conjunction with Cooper's Hill College. Well, during the first years of that College, it was open to candidates to obtain their education where they pleased, and to compete with the students of the College at the final examination. But so few availed themselves of that privilege that it practically became a dead-letter, and it was not thought necessary to retain it on the re-organization of the College. The calculation which had been laid before the House by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was an exceedingly rough one; but he did not deny that the average expenses of Cooper's Hill had exceeded the receipts by something like £4,000 annually. It was also not unfair to say that the average cost of the education of each student was about £200, if interest on capital outlay were excluded, and £300 if it were included. That, no doubt, was a considerable charge, and he did not say it was one which ought to be permanently incurred by the Government of India; but, at the same time, the magnitude of the interests involved in the efficient management of public works in India was so great that any expense of this kind ought to sink into insignificance. The question was one of efficiency in the proper recruitment of the Public Works Department of India. Looked at in this point of view, Cooper's Hill had not been unsatisfactory. The Government of India had reported several times that they were fully satisfied with the recruits sent them; and in one of their despatches they stated that the Reports they received were universally favourable, and in some cases eminently so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to a letter of Colonel Chesney, which took notice of the want of practical training of engineers sent out. He had not seen the letter, and had not been able to follow the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman; but he could scarcely conceive that he intended to argue that the engineers sent out from Cooper's Hill College had less practical knowledge and training, and were less qualified to take up their work at once, than candidates who were sent out from any other Engineering School in the country. No doubt, from whatever school they came, they required some practical training; but he did not suppose it would be contended that a Scotch University or Trinity College sent out more practically qualified engineers than Cooper's Hill had done. He (the Marquess of Hartington) had stated that he did not feel himself called upon to defend the policy of the original institution of this College. It was done after the fullest consideration; and, the money having been spent and laid out, it was no use discussing whether it was a wise policy at the time or not. Nor did it devolve primarily upon him to defend the new organization. What he had done had been simply to carry into completion the arrangements made by his Predecessor. The fact was, that during 1876, 1877, and 1878, the excessive cost to India of this establishment had directed attention to it, and various proposals were under the consideration of the Government for the reduction of the charges. In 1879 the check which was then given by the reduction of the Public Works expenditure, and, as a consequence, the diminution of the employment for Civil Engineers, made the question still more urgent. It was very carefully considered by Lord Cranbrook and by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope). At that time the question of closing the College was mooted; and he had no hesitation in saying that the Government of India were not indisposed to recommend that course. Lord Cranbrook, however, doubted the expediency of the course favoured by the Government of India. Taking into consideration the very excellent, though somewhat costly, result of Cooper's Hill, he did not wonder that Lord Cranbrook had hesitated to destroy an Institution which had done so much good, and promised to do so much more. No doubt, as had been said, there were other Institutions in which engineering education was given. Engineering schools existed in the Schools and Colleges referred to; and he believed that in some cases degrees and diplomas in engineering science were conferred; but he did not believe that there existed in any part of the Kingdom an establishment devoted to education in civil engineering in which the appliances and the arrangements carried out so complete a system of engineering education as at Cooper's Hill.

MR. GIBSON

observed, that Trinity College possessed every appliance for the purpose of affording a complete education in engineering.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

was informed that there was no Institution where the appliances were so complete as at Cooper's Hill. Then, it must be remembered that the same article was not required in India as in this country. Any man proceeding from an engineering school in the United Kingdom or Ireland was kept for a time under the care of a competent engineer, possessing full practical knowledge, under whose direction he rapidly became competent. But in India the men were widely scattered, they had almost immediately to take up independent duties, and they were not, and could not be, retained under the care of professional experts, as would be the case in England. It did not follow, therefore, that because the engineering schools of this country were exactly adapted for the production of the article required for engineering at home, the same schools would turn out what was required for India. Under those circumstances, Lord Cranbrook hesitated to adopt the proposal to close the schools and to abandon altogether what had been done. He appointed a Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanhope) was Chairman, which conferred with certain leading members of the engineering profession. As a result, they made certain proposals which were adopted by Lord Cranbrook, and the constitution of the College was entirely changed. It had been originally computed that at least 50 engineers would be annually required to be sent out to India; but when the reduction in the Public Works expenditure of India was decided upon, it was found that probably 10, or 15 at the utmost, would be annually needed for many years to come. It was therefore evident that Cooper's Hill could not be kept up exclusively for the wants of India, and it was decided to alter the constitution of the College, and to throw it open to the public, and to abolish the entrance examination. The appointments in the Public Works Department, as many as were vacant, it was decided should be offered, from time to time, as prizes to the most successful students in the establishment. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had contended that every student would obtain an appointment at the conclusion of his course, whether he submitted himself to examination or not. That was not so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman took the years in which it was known that the number of appointments to be given would very much diminish, and on account of that knowledge the entrances fell off. It was hoped that this Institution might be made useful and available, not only to meet the wants of India, but also of the Colonies and Dependencies of this country, and, to a certain extent, for home requirements. With the object of adapting the education fully to the wants of the public, a Board of Visitors had been appointed, who were intrusted with the revision of the studies pursued at the College, and it was hoped that the course would thus adapt itself to the wants of the public and the profession. The Board of Visitors now consists half of gentlemen who were qualified by Indian experience, and half of eminent members of the engineering profession. Among the latter, he might mention Mr. Barlow, the President of the Institute of Civil Engineers, Mr. Fowler, the late President, and Mr. Siemens, whose reputations were well known. These were active and attentive Members of the Board, and they had from time to time recommended certain changes in the studies. This scheme was practically matured when he succeeded to the management of the India Office; and he had had nothing to do with it but to give his formal sanction to the appointment of gentlemen who had already been nominated for the Board of Visitors. The scheme only came into operation last September, and the support it had hitherto received from the public was by no means discouraging. No one desired that any considerable burden should be permanently imposed upon the Government of India for the pur- pose of maintaining this College. No doubt they would not be justified in imposing a heavy burden upon the Revenues of India, and they must endeavour to devise some other system; but there was no reason to think that under the new management any such terms would be imposed. At all events, considering what had been done, the expenditure that had been incurred, and the undoubted efficiency of the instruction which was now given at Cooper's Hill, it would be a matter of great regret that by a premature inquiry public confidence in this College should be destroyed, and the chance of its becoming a success should be put an end to. As he had said at the commencement, he did not say that this was not a subject which might hereafter be very usefully inquired into by a Committee; but it appeared to him that at the present moment, when a new scheme which was very carefully elaborated had only just come into operation, that course would not be an advantageous or a desirable one to adopt. The hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Carbutt) made some reference to the grievances of the civil engineers employed in the Public Works Department. The hon. Member referred to the Royal Engineers. Well, the position of the civil engineers had lately been under the consideration of the Government of India, and they made certain proposals which were still under the consideration of the Council of India. He had every disposition to give a fair consideration to that most important branch of the Civil Service, and he trusted that reasonable satisfaction would be given those men. It was true that a great many of the highest appointments were still held by the Royal Engineers; but they had had a long start in the profession, even the Stanley engineers being comparatively their juniors; and it was natural that the senior service should still hold a considerable proportion of the higher appointments; but there was no reason to believe that as time went on this would continue to be the case. He ventured to hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be satisfied with having called attention to this very important question, and would not press his Motion to a division. It would be competent to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, when some further experience had been gained in the working of this College under the new management, to bring forward the subject again. He could not think that an inquiry at the present moment would be conducted under advantageous circumstances.

MR. ONSLOW

said, he had no wish to pass the slightest slur upon the management of the College. He had the pleasure of knowing several who had been connected with it, and those who had been educated in it, and he knew the great work the College had done. But, after all, the question to be considered was, What was the best plan for recruiting the Public Works Department in India? He had the pleasure of being connected with India some years ago, when this question cropped up in a forcible way. After mature consideration it was deemed that the best plan for promoting the Service of India was by having a practical College in England, where gentlemen could be trained for the services they had to render abroad. The question was forced on the Government of India by the great and overwhelming public opinion—an opinion in which he fully shared—that it was a matter of paramount importance for the prosperity of India that large sums of money should be spent annually on public works; and this, of course, necessitated a considerable increase in the staff of officers at that time employed. They had had officers as able and efficient coming from the Military Department as, he believed, they would ever get from Cooper's Hill College. But the number of engineers they could get in India was comparatively small considering the amount of work which had to be performed. So long, however, as they had Cooper's Hill to obtain recruits from, and also could obtain military engineers from Woolwich, there would always be some little friction and dissatisfaction—therefore, his right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Gibson) proposed to have a Committee to inquire into the system of education at Cooper's Hill; and, in fact, to have a thorough inquiry into the mode of recruiting the Public Works Department in India, and he thought it would be well to agree to the Motion. He supposed there never was a more efficient or abler engineer than the present Lord Napier of Magdala; but he was rather an exception. It would be very difficult to recruit officers of the same calibre as Lord Napier. He did not care what the ex- pense of an establishment in this country for training young men might be, so long as they could send out efficient men to India. The question was, What was the best way of getting men into the Public Works Department? It appeared to him that it would be better if they had some more general system of getting men for that Department; that there should be examinations of candidates in Scotland and in Ireland; and that those who successfully passed examinations should be placed under efficient tuition in this country. The amount of money spent in India for public works was never the same from one year to another. The amount depended upon the sum that could be spared from the Revenues of India, and it was this fluctuating demand which had been the great difficulty of Cooper's Hill College. The fluctuations in the number of men trained in it, according to the state of the Indian finances, he believed, caused greater expense than any plan that could be adopted for recruiting men for any Department where the constant and regular supply was known. The noble Marquess had referred to an inquiry which had taken place; but it was simply Departmental, and it could not be so efficient as one by a Select Committee of that House, which would show whether military engineers would be the best to send out to India—in short, whether the teaching and training at Woolwich or at Cooper's Hill were the better; and another question whether Woolwich could supply the quantity of recruits necessary for the Service. He considered that it would be more satisfactory to the public, not only in this country, but in India, if the Committee that was asked for were appointed, though he admitted, at the same time, there was force in the observation to let the present system have a further trial.

MR. E. STANHOPE

said, the practical effect of appointing a Committee of Inquiry would be to paralyze the working of Cooper's Hill College, and, ere long, lead to its utter destruction. No doubt Cooper's Hill College must stand or fall upon its own merits. He quite admitted that if the question were a new one, and they were asked to establish such an Institution, there might be some ground for hesitation; but now that it was established, it was but just that it should have a fair trial. At the time of its in- stitution it could not be denied that an Institution of that character was necessary. It was established at what he might call a period of inflation, when an exceptional number of engineers was suddenly required; and it was a time when we were not fully able to arrive at a definite conclusion as to the number of engineers that would be required in the future, or as to the extent to which we should be able to employ Natives. Therefore it was that the establishment of the College was forced upon the Duke of Argyll. It could not be doubted that the College had done admirably good work to the Profession and the country. Students had been sent from it who were a credit to their country and to their profession. There was one matter not much alluded to, which had always struck him as supremely important. He would refer to some remarks made by Colonel Chesney, who afterwards became the head of the College. Colonel Chesney said that the spirit of esprit de corps which such an Institution was calculated to engender was not the least of its merits, because it was a matter of feeling rather than administration. Colonel Chesney went on to say that he was only expressing the general feeling of the Profession when he said that the Institution had served to bring together, in the period of enthusiastic youth, the future members of the Service, who looked forward to passing their lives in a common calling in India. That was the spirit in which the College had been founded. How had it worked? He believed a corporate sense of honour—which was, perhaps, a better expression than esprit de corps—had been created, which led men to do their best to reflect credit on the Institution. The expenditure on the College, if great, could hardly be considered in recent years, at any rate, to be out of proportion to the service rendered, as it was of the highest importance that the best class of engineers should be secured. It was found, however, when the Public Works Staff in India was largely reduced in 1879, that only a small proportion of the students admitted to the College could possibly receive appointments to the Public Works Service in India; and, in consequence, a new system was organized, which had only been in operation for six or seven months. It was perfectly clear to his mind that an inquiry at this early stage could do no good; its only effect would he be to weaken and hinder the useful work which was being done. His right hon. and learned Friend proposed to go back to the open system. But it was perfectly clear that by competition alone the best men could not be obtained. The result of the existing system had turned out good practical engineers, and men who were bound in honour to do their duty. He trusted that the House would allow that system to be thoroughly tested, and would not break up an Institution which had done such valuable service.

MR. PLUNKET

said, he regretted that the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India had not seen fit to assent to the appointment of such a Committee as had been proposed by his right hon. and learned Friend and Colleague. He would venture to appeal once more to the noble Lord, in the interest not only of his own constituents, but also of the public generally, to allow a Committee to sit for the purpose of inquiry, by no means necessarily in a hostile spirit, into the working of Cooper's Hill College, in order to get to the bottom of the question, and to set at rest the discontent which prevailed in the public mind as to the management of that Institution. The argument of the noble Lord was that if there was an inquiry public confidence would be shaken. But he did not think that a fair inquiry, over which it was not improbable the noble Lord himself would preside, would tend to blight and wither the prospects of the College. What harm could happen? The Professors would still lecture, and the students attend their lectures. The noble Lord was entirely mistaken in stating that there was no practical school of engineering besides the College. In the University of Dublin there was a perfectly practical school of engineering, in which the curriculum was much the same as that at Cooper's Hill, except that the examination at the University was of a more practical and searching character. The Dublin engineering students had done much valuable work in the country. This and other schools, in fact, turned out all the engineers of the country, Cooper's Hill having merely a character more specialized. Then he did not understand from the speech of his right hon. and learned Friend that he wished to abolish Cooper's Hill, root and branch. That might possibly be the result; but it might be far otherwise. The great danger was in creating a monopoly, which always tended to encourage laziness, whereas, with free and open competition, you always got your money's worth. The present system at Cooper's Hill was a haphazard one, in which the rule prevailed of first come first served, and there was no adequate security of getting the best men. Another extraordinary thing connected with the College was this. The noble Lord said it now admitted other persons than those who were designed for the Indian Civil Service. On what ground, he should like to know, were they admitted? In his opinion, this was only an excuse for keeping up this expensive monopoly. There was another most remarkable thing with respect to which he should like some explanation. According to the 31st paragraph of the scheme, the College authorities might, on the application of students who passed out of the College, but who did not enter the Indian Civil Service, place them as pupils with eminent engineers on payment of a nominal premium. This was an additional attraction to induce men to come into the College; and, although they did not intend to go out to India at all, the College was to interfere in order to give them these extraordinary advantages. The College was well endowed, and no doubt it was a very excellent Institution; but this was no reason why it should not be inquired into. All the Civil Services were now thrown open, and a general system of open competition prevailed. By competition alone could the public be assured of obtaining the best men for the public service. He did not wish to say one word against the excellence of the College or of the students; but he thought his right hon. and learned Friend and Colleague had made out a case for an inquiry into the working of this Institution.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that when the College was established the condition of the Public Works Service in India was not satisfactory, and it was felt that something should be done to supply young men for the engineering service in India. It was the case also then that there were no engineering schools in this country which sufficiently combined this branch with scientific educa- tion. He had listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson); and, while one or two of his statements struck him as extravagant, in many respects his arguments were very cogent. He knew that in the University of Edinburgh the engineering school had been very much improved; and he thought that with respect to engineering schools Scotland and Ireland had an advantage over England. The English Universities, he thought, were too much hampered by endowments, which bound them to certain subjects of education, and it was a reproach to them that they were not provided with engineering schools. It might be fairly said that Cooper's Hill College was subsidized, and that it competed with the other engineering educational Institution s in the United Kingdom. He was not surprised that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, representing the constituency he did, should have brought this question forward; but they must give weight to the considerations put forward by the noble Marquess. Cooper's Hill College was established to meet a necessity, and it was, to a certain extent, successful. He should be sorry to see that College done away with, or undermined, without full consideration and adequate inquiry. The noble Lord told them that a new arrangement had been recently made, and he was apprehensive that any further inquiry might endanger the success of the present experiment. If he (Sir George Campbell) had that all-prevailing faith in the efficiency of the House of Commons to set everything right in every department of the British Empire, he might not be indisposed to support the proposal for a Select Committee; but he confessed the longer one sat in the House, the more one was convinced that it was overwhelmed with Business, and having regard to the breadth and largeness of the questions which might be opened up by an inquiry of this kind, it was a question whether it would be desirable to bring it forward until the Procedure of the House was reformed. On that ground, while confessing that he thought it extremely desirable that, if not now, at all events before very long, some sufficient inquiry should be made into the system by which the Public Works Service in India was supplied, he was not, for one, prepared to oppose the view that the noble Lord took that the present proposal was somewhat premature, and that they had better wait a little before Parliament should be asked to make the inquiry. With regard to the distribution of patronage in India, and to the appointment of military engineers, he most emphatically denied that there was any prejudice in favour of military engineers, or that civil engineers were likely to be unfairly treated. It was desirable in the interest of the Public Service that they should have in India men who were prepared to devote their lives to the country, who would become acquainted with the habits and language of the Natives, men not only good engineers, but men who must be able to manage vast armies of Natives, sympathize with them, and, as he said, to spend the better part of their lives among them. He was inclined to believe that the military engineers should confine themselves to military work, and that in future the Civil Department of the Public Works in India should be recruited by young civil engineers. They had in Scotland and Ireland established sufficient schools of engineering; and he felt that they should not be excluded from the appointment of students to these engineering posts.

MR. PUGH

said, this was not a College for India only, but for home requirements. It was only Indian in this respect, that India had to pay the whole cost of it. He certainly thought the hon. Gentleman (Sir George Campbell) had by his speech conclusively shown a necessity for the proposed inquiry.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 78; Noes 27: Majority 51.—(Div. List, No. 68.)

Main Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."