HC Deb 31 May 1881 vol 261 cc1841-54
MAJOR NOLAN

, in rising to move— That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that Her Majesty's Government should take steps to carry into effect such of the recommendations of the Potato Crop Committee of 1880 as relate to Ireland, by promoting the, creation and establishment of new varieties of the Potato; by facilitating the progress of further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the Potato Disease; and by bringing within the reach of small farmers supplies of sound seed to be obtained for cash payments, said, that the question he was about to bring under the notice of the House of Commons was one of the utmost importance. The value of the potato crop in Ireland was subject to great variation. It was calculated by the Registrar General that in the year 1879 there had been a loss on the crop, as compared with former years, amounting to £6,000,000; while Professor Baldwin, a high authority on the subject, declared the loss to be as high as £8,000,000. It was said that the potato was a precarious crop; but the whole object of his Motion was to make it less precarious. A certain class of persons objected to Government aid being given; but the potato required special attention, and he believed it would be totally impossible for the small farmers of Ireland, unless the Government did something in the matter from time to time, to ensure for themselves a good crop of potatoes. Another reason for Government interference was that the late Government had interfered with very marked success, and, in fact, had behaved very well. The Irish Members initiated the idea that at a time of great emergency new seed should be found, and the late Government took it up and carried it out, for which he thanked them. He gave a great deal of credit to the late Government for what they did on the occasion, because they held the purse-strings and had the majority. Mr. Lowther, who was then Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, listened patiently to the proposals of the Irish Members and took great pains in carrying them out, and he begged to return that right hon. Gentleman his heartfelt thanks for the assistance he had given. The suggestions which he now submitted were in accordance with the recommendations of a Select Committee of last year, composed not only of Irish Members but of English and Scotch Members interested in the subject. They examined several scientific witnesses, who were all agreed as to the way in which the potato disease was propagated. There was no doubt that it was propagated by means of fungi, each of which gave out millions of spores within 48 hours, and that ac- counted for the terrible rapidity with which the disease spread. The Government might assist in the determination of certain scientific points which were of great practical importance. One of them was the duration of the life of the potato plant. It appeared to be about 20 years; but Regents were thought to have a little more vitality than others. Champions seemed to be exhausted more quickly than others, because in Ireland the same trouble was not taken about the seed as was taken elsewhere. It was the duty of the Government to see that there was something to take the place of the potato that was being exhausted. It was of no use waiting for a famine before we began to consider what we should do. Where should we have been if Mr. Nicholls had not introduced the Champion? If a cemetery keeper had not taken a fancy to cultivate different seeds, Ireland would have been in a bad position at present. Mr. Nicholls might be called an inventor, only he could not patent his invention. Yes, but if such an invention could be patented, it would be worth people's while to produce new varieties. Because it was not worth any-one's while to produce new varieties, the Government ought to step in, by assisting a society where one existed and taking the initiative where there was none. There were special reasons for the action of the Government in the case of small farmers. Large farmers could choose their own seed. The lowland Scotch brought their seed from high altitudes and kept up the quality by constant changes. The small farmer could do nothing of the kind. His system, according to all the witnesses, was practically destructive; he lost three or four times as much as the large farmer, following the better system. It was the duty of the Government, in the circumstances, to help the small farmer; and the present was a very favourable time for doing it. The efforts might be made through the agency of the Board of Guardians. No seed merchant would send seed to Ireland for several years to come. They could not trust in Ireland to speculation in this matter. What he proposed was that the Boards of Guardians should have power to sell seed to small tenants, who would be enabled at a merely nominal expense to change their seed every second year. The seed should come from Scotland. He hoped the Government would undertake to carry out the Resolution which he had placed on the Paper, and which he begged now to move.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, he rose to second the Motion. He thought the House, and especially those who were interested in Irish affairs, should be much obliged to the hon. and and gallant Member for having brought this important question before the House. In connection with it, the admirable qualities of the potato had been compared with the less nutritious character of Indian meal. After some experience of the use of Indian meal by the poor in Ireland, he could say that when the Relief Committees were at work in the winter of 1879, the only food that could be supplied easily and plentifully was Indian meal. The fear was lest its too exclusive use should produce dysentery and general poverty of blood; and those effects, unfortunately, were found in some of the most distressed districts, and were clearly traced to a diet of Indian meal. Everything showed the necessity of improving the stock of potatoes, and their superiority to meal in a country of which the climate did not permit corn to be grown in any great quantity. The population of Ireland, in consequence of the great failure of the potato crop in 1847 and 1848, was reduced from 8,000,000 to about 5,000,000. After the great Famine of 1847 and 1848 there was no very general failure of the potato crop which caused alarm to the Government of the country until the winter of 1879. The shortness of the crop of 1877 induced the people to take less care than they ought to have done in the selection of the seed for the crop of 1878, and that operated with still greater effect on the spring of 1879.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, if the hon. and gallant Member for the county of Galway had not been in such a hurry to bring his own proposals before the House, the Government would have made proposals which would have been more favourable to the Irish people, and they would not now have been in their position of indebtedness to the Boards of Guardians. Having brought in his Bill, the hon. and gallant Member obtained the assistance of the Government, because his plan would be less expensive than their own. Then the hon. and gallant Member moved for a Committee to inquire into the cause of the failure of the potato crop—

MR. A. MOORE

rose to Order, on the ground that the noble Lord was making observations which had no bearing upon the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway.

MR. SPEAKER

ruled that the noble Lord was in Order.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

thanked the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair for putting down disorderly interruption. With regard to the machinery suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway for relieving the poor people of Ireland, he thought that it would be in the highest degree imprudent to entrust the Boards of Guardians with any further powers or responsibility in the matter. What, he asked, had been the result of the Bill of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, by which he had placed in the hands of the Boards of Guardians power to raise funds for supplying the people with potatoes? Why, it was notorious that in may parts of the West of Ireland the Boards of Guardians either took no trouble at all to see that proper seed was purchased, or—

MR. SPEAKER

I understood that the noble Lord rose to second the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway; but the noble Lord has not yet approached that subject.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, he should not like to submit any reasons to show that Mr. Speaker was incorrect; but the hon. and gallant Member had moved— That Her Majesty's Government should take steps to carry into effect such of the recommendations of the Potato Crop Committee of 1880 as relate to Ireland, by promoting the creation and establishment of new varieties of the Potato; by facilitating the progress of further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the Potato Disease; and by bringing within the reach of small farmers supplies of sound seed to be obtained for cash payments. This, generally, was a Motion which he (Lord Randolph Churchill) wished to second; and he would point out that the hon. and gallant Member was satisfied that the machinery by which these ends could be accomplished was the Board of Guardians, and that was the point to which he was adverting when interrupted. While seconding the hon. and gallant Member's Motion generally, having used the reasons and arguments upon the potato crop which appeared to him to be germane, he now ventured rather to criticize that particular detail, the machinery, which the hon. and gallant Member would adopt. With all respect, he would submit to Mr. Speaker that his remarks approached nearer to the question than would appear to him (Mr. Speaker).

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

Mr. Speaker, I put it to you whether the noble Lord is not trifling with the time of the House?

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

May I call your attention to the fact, Mr. Speaker, that there are no Members of the Government present but the Legal Representatives of Ireland. I protest against the Solicitor General for Ireland's interference with the noble Lord.

MR. SPEAKER

As I informed the noble Lord, I understood that he rose to second the Motion. His observations seem to me to be of a critical character, and certainly not in support of the Resolution.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I was referring to the Boards of Guardians in Ireland; and, if I may be allowed to say so, the Solicitor General for Ireland has not had a very long experience of this House—

MR. SPEAKER

I must call on the noble Lord not to address himself to an hon. Member, but to the Chair.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

Yes, Mr. Speaker; I would put it to you, whether Members, even though they be "right hon." Members, should not leave it to you to call hon. Members to Order, and particularly when they have not had very long experience of the House? If they would not be in such a hurry to interrupt—

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

I rise to Order. I really would ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the noble Lord is not trifling with the House? And I ask the House whether he is not still more trifling with them by not addressing himself to the Chair?

MR. SPEAKER

As I have said, the noble Lord must address himself to the Chair.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, he certainly intended to do so, and would, perhaps, be more successful in his attempt if he were not interrupted by hon. Members. He had been saying that the Boards of Guardians had not proved themselves to be the most trustworthy machinery for such a purpose as that stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan). There was a strong belief in Ireland that in many cases the Boards of Guardians had laid themselves open to the suspicion—to say the least of it—of acting from interested motives. This was a fact, and he had no doubt there were Irish Members present who were prepared to say that there was no exaggeration in this statement. He did not think that even the Solicitor General for Ireland could get up and deny it. Whilst agreeing with the hon. and gallant Member in his project, he was justified in criticizing this particular detail. He most strongly objected to any further experiment being made by the Government of the day with the object of entrusting Boards of Guardians with public funds to carry out the wish of the hon. and gallant Member. There were other bodies, no doubt, who would be able to carry out the hon. and gallant Member's object. He was not at all sure that the Grand Jury would not be able to do it. The Grand Jury was, composed principally of people interested in the soil. They were landlords, the payment to whom of rent largely depended on the prolific growth of potatoes in a large portion of Ireland. The Grand Jury was also composed of a class of men who would be less liable to imputations of interested motives than Boards of Guardians. No doubt, there were some hon. Members from Ireland who would agree with him in that view. Then, the hon. and gallant Member had drawn the attention of the House to the desirability of "promoting the creation amt establishment of new varieties of the potato." It had been discovered and shown almost irrefutably that all the theories about the potato seed being blown about in the air were absurd and vested on no scientific foundation. The fact was that a particular seed, planted and grown in the ordinary method of Irish cultivation—which was not the highest form of cultivation—after a very few years got worn out. In Ireland the soil was not carefully manured and the potatoes were grown in a very careless way; frequently they were not cut up, but put into the ground whole. Year after year this process went on, the worst potatoes being selected for seed and the best for food; and there was no doubt whatever that in about seven years of such treatment as this any kind of potato would become diseased. Of course, where the Champions had been used—whether they had been distributed by the Relief Committees or by the boards of Guardians—there had been a very satisfactory result; crops almost incredible for their prolific character had been produced. But where the old kinds had been planted—the Regent and the Derry Blue—which were kinds with which, no doubt, some hon. Members were best acquainted, they had turned out most unfortunately, and had not produced the result which had been expected. Therefore, it was very important that the Government should take steps to supply the Irish people, or to assist the Irish people to supply them-selves with these Champion potatoes, which appeared to be, with the exception of the Magnum Bonum—[Laughter.]—he did not know why hon. Members laughed. It was very extraordinary that they should find anything peculiar in this, because these Magnum Bonums were well known; though it was, comparatively, a rare kind of tuber. It had not been tried in Ireland to any great extent. In England it had proved very successful; and if the Government would take steps to bring these recently discovered kinds, the Champion and the Magnum Bonum, within the reach of the Irish people they would be acting to the advantage of Ireland and taking steps to prevent the recurrence of that distress which we had seen in that country in 1879. Then the hon. and gallant Member proceeded to recommend the Government to facilitate the progress of further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the potato disease, and in this he (Lord Randolph Churchill) agreed. No doubt, the Go- vernment had at present in Ireland establishments which could be advantageously used for these experiments. As the hon. and gallant Member had pointed out, they had the establishment at Glasnevin—the agricultural farm under the experienced direction of Professor Baldwin. If that agricultural establishment could be turned to some such use as that the hon. and gallant Member suggested, it would be doing more good to the people of Ireland than it had ever yet been the means of doing—for up to the present, although a large expenditure of public money had taken place upon it, the results of the operations at Glasnevin had not been satisfactory. Then the hon. and gallant Member recommended that steps should be taken to bring within the reach of small farmers supplies of sound seed to be obtained for cash payments. Here, no doubt, the hon. and gallant Member recommended a thing extremely desirable; but he would suggest to him that this part of his Motion was a little visionary. Cash payments in Ireland, at the present moment, were not generally obtained; and he was doubtful whether the Government would be justified in making any considerable advances to the Boards of Guardians, in order that they might lend them to the Irish tenants in the hope of obtaining cash payments in return. The state of the country did not appear to be one which would justify the State in embarking in this particular enterprize; and, on the whole, he should be inclined to recommend the hon. and gallant Gentleman not to press too hurriedly on the attention of the House this question of cash payments in Ireland. Generally, with regard to the hon. and gallant Member's Motion, it was not only well deserving of the attention of the House, but it demanded the immediate attention of Her Majesty's Government, because there was no doubt that if the summer of this year proved unpropitious—if we had the continual rain that we had in 1879—there would be a great recurrence of the severe and exceptional distress of that year. The only means by which this severe and exceptional distress could be avoided was by taking steps to improve the cultivation of the potato; therefore, he had much pleasure in seconding the Motion. Motion made, and Question proposed, That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that Her Majesty's Government should take steps to carry into effect such of the recommendations of the Potato Crop Committee of 1880 as relate to Ireland, by promoting the creation and establishment of new varieties of the Potato; by facilitating the progress of further experiments as the best means of lessening the spread of the Potato Disease; and by bringing within the reach of small farmers supplies of sound seed to be obtained for cash payments."—(Major Nolan.)

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

said, it was exceedingly to be regretted that the noble Lord, when he had the opportunity, had not availed himself of it to acquire more accurate knowledge of Ireland, and especially of the potato question.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

rose to Order. He wished to ask whether the Solicitor General for Ireland was in Order in using language of this character to an hon. Member of the House?

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. and learned Gentleman is in Order.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

, continuing, said, having regard to the national importance of the question, and to the particular condition of Ireland, not only now but, unhappily, periodically, the thanks of the House were due to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for introducing the subject to the notice of the House. Whatever might be said about hon. Members for Ireland introducing speculative questions, his hon. and gallant Friend had brought before the House a subject which was of the most vital importance to the very existence of Ireland. Political economy and chemical analysis might tell them that potatoes were very bad things; but as a matter of fact they were the food of hundreds and thousands of men who had shed their blood on every field of battle where honour had been achieved by British arms. Unfortunately, by constantly using the same kind of potato it had become worn out, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman had put before the House a plain and practical question—namely, that inasmuch as they must admit that the people of Ireland would grow and could grow potatoes, that they could and would live largely on potatoes, it must be decided how they were to get seed that would not fail, and how famine was to be avoided. A problem of this kind could, no doubt, be best and most usefully solved by a Ministerial Department for Agriculture and Commerce, to the appointment of which the Government, practically, assented the other clay upon the Motion of the hon. Baronet (Sir Massy Lopes). The noble Lord had suggested using the Grand Juries in Ireland for this purpose. He (the Solicitor General for Ireland) did not consider this practicable; they met only twice in the year, at each Assizes, and were only occupied a few days at each meeting. That such bodies could administer any fund for the advantage of the cultivation of potatoes was perfectly impossible. [Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Why?] The noble Lord asked why? He (the Solicitor General for Ireland) had already stated the reason. Grand Juries were not continuing bodies; they were only nominated at each Assizes; and at those two periods of the year transacted fiscal as well as criminal business, and they had no organization suitable for the objects contemplated by the Motion before the House. With reference to Boards of Guardians, he would submit to the House that they were the bodies who would be the most efficient in administering the Relief Fund suggested; they were acquainted with the individual wants in the various localities, and knew where good seed was required and the best means of obtaining it. What was wanted in Ireland was fresh and not worn-out seed. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) would probably agree with him that the experiments he suggested would be most effectually carried out by the National Agricultural Society rather than by a Government Department. If agricultural schools existed, they might have been made useful for this purpose; but the only institutions of this kind in Ireland had been the agricultural schools in connection with the National Board, and their history, he was sorry to say, had been of a most unpromising character. [Lord. RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Question!] The noble Lord cried "Question!" He was sorry to see the noble Lord failed still to grasp the real question. The agricultural schools at one time flourished very successfully in Ireland.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I wish to know, Sir, if the Solicitor General for Ireland is in Order in turning his back on the Chair when addressing the House?

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

The interruption of the noble Lord, which I presume the Speaker will take no notice of—

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

After the observation of the hon. and learned Gentleman, I must ask you, Sir, is it competent for a Member of the House to turn his back on the Speaker when addressing the House?

MR. SPEAKER

It must be within the knowledge of every Member of this House that the Chair is to be addressed.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

said, that no one could for a moment imagine that he intended disrespect to the Chair by any position in which he might stand when addressing the House. He was about to say that the agricultural schools in connection with the National Board fell through because the education given in them was of too theoretical a character. There were now but two agricultural schools in Ireland which survived, and that in Cork would have been actually given up had it not been for the great exertions of the Agricultural Society. The course suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to improve the potato crop in Ireland could not be successfully carried out at this moment, and he hoped the hon. and gallant Member would be satisfied with having ventilated the question, and with having obtained the assurance that he might depend upon it that the Department of Agriculture and Commerce would, when appointed, take the subject in hand. At present there was no immediate necessity for action, for the potatoes were now not only above the ground, but he was glad to say they promised to yield a good crop.

MR.GIVAN

said, that with regard to the speech of the noble Lord, he must express his surprise that the time of the House was trifled with to such an extent. It was melancholy in the state of Public Business to see the time of the House deliberately wasted by the noble Lord. He disapproved of the suggestion of the noble Lord that any fund for the distribution of seed potato should be entrusted to the Grand Jury in preference to the Boards of Guardians. His hon. and gallant Friend had suggested a very sensible and practical mode in which provision might be made out of the public funds to secure suitable and good seed potatoes in Ireland. Only a grant of £200 would be required, and he hoped the Government would, at any rate, accept the proposal in a modified form.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

said, if they had to wait till the establishment of a Board of Agriculture, or Minister of Agriculture, they would have to wait long enough, he was afraid, for the experiment. There were several bodies in Ireland who might make the experiment as to the growth of new varieties of potatoes. Several agricultural bodies already did so; but there was a powerful body in Ireland which probably possessed larger funds than any other, body in that part of the Kingdom, and which was constituted for the purpose of promoting the interests of the tenants of Ireland—he referred to the Land League. Seeing opposite hon. Gentlemen who had a good deal to do with that Association, and who had some influence over its funds, he could not lose the opportunity of suggesting to them that these experiments might be very wisely performed by them. If they could discover for the small farmers the best kind of potatoes to cultivate for the purpose of eking out their living, they would do that which all the world would consider patriotic; and he was quite sure they would find a solace in the endeavour for the heated contests in which they had been so long engaged.

MR. A. MOORE

said, it had been clearly demonstrated by evidence that one kind of potato could not be expected to last more than 12 years. The Champion was a great success, but it could not be expected to last for more than 20 years at the most; and in the meantime efforts ought to be made to propagate a new species. A very large sum of money was annually spent at Kew; he would suggest that some portion of that money be devoted to the propagation of new varieties of potatoes. He wished to suggest that Boards of Guardians in Ireland should be enabled to sell fresh seed at cost price.

MR. CALLAN

said, no hope had been held out to them by the Solicitor General for Ireland that the course suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) would be adopted. There were some Members in the House who, whenever an Irish subject was introduced, felt bound to drag in the Land League. The hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) had suggested that the funds of the Land League should be devoted to the experiments under discussion. As far as the Land League was concerned, the hon. Member reminded him of a character in "David Copperfield"—Mr. Dick, who never could get Charles I. out of his head—

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock, till Thursday.