§ MR. O'KELLYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If 1835 his attention has been called to the following evidence referring to the indebtedness of the Irish tenant farmers:—The following passage in the evidence of Professor Baldwin before the Royal Commission on Agriculture (Vol. I. p. 89):—
2805. Can you give us an idea of the amount of the state of debt they are in; how many Years' rent in some cases?—As far as our inquiries have gone, it would not be too much to say that in many places they owe on an average from three to five years' rent to shopkeepers alone. In some cases we ascertained the figures, which we verified afterwards, and found they owed as much as from eight to ten years' rent to shopkeepers.2806. Is that on account of goods bought or money lent?—Chiefly for provisions and for goods of different kinds; not so much for money lent.The following passage in the evidence of Mr. Mulhallen Marum, M.P., before the Irish Land Commission (Vol. III. Question 35,886):—They," meaning the tenant farmers, "are hopelessly in debt. My experience in the County Kilkenny and Queen's County, which is very large, leads me to say that their indebtedness is something nobody can have any conception of;whether his attention has been called to the following passages in the evidence before the Commission as to the remedy for this state of things. The following passage in the evidence of Colonel King-Harman (Land Commission, Vol. II. Question 14, 183):—I think there is only one possible remedy in the West of Ireland—that is, local courts of bankruptcy, or giving power to the county court judge to deal as in bankruptcy with all cases of small debts. I think the people have got a load of debt about their necks now which it is utterly impossible to get rid of; but if they could pay a reasonable composition they would start fair, and it would prevent excessive credit being given again.And the following passage in the evidence of Professor Baldwin (Royal Commission on Agriculture (Vol I. Question 2,808):—Have you ever considered what might be a remedy for that?—Yes, we have thought a good deal over it, and we agree in thinking that there is nothing for it, except some system of bankruptcy courts which would go as near as possible to the homes of the people and give them a fresh start. It is a violent remedy, but the state of affairs is very critical;and, if he will insert in the Land Law (Ireland) Bill more provisions founded on these recommendations for dealing With arrears of rent in the case of ten 1836 ants involved in hopleless indebtedness through bad seasons?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, he had read the passages from the evidence referred to in the hon. Gentleman's Questions. The last Question ought to have been addressed to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, because the Land Bill was in his right hon. Friend's charge, not in his own. But he might say—and hon. Members would be able to correct his statement if he was wrong by reading them themselves—that all the extracts to which the hon. Gentleman alluded related, not to the special debt for rent, but to every kind of debt. Therefore, if the passages were to form the ground of any recommendation at all, it would be a recommendation for the wiping out of all debt.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the right hon. Gentleman, Whether the landlord had not a preferential claim for his rent over the debts of shopkeepers? And was he not aware that Colonel King-Harman had recommended that the debt due to the landlord should be placed on the same level as that due to the shopkeeper?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, the hon. Gentleman had asked him quite a different Question from that put by the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly), his answer to whom was, he believed, correct. He did not wish to give any opinion on other matters.
§ MR. O'KELLYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, On what authority he founds the statement that of the tenant farmers, against whom 2,200 ejectment processes were granted at the late quarter sessions in Ireland, many were able but unwilling to pay their rent; and, if he will state what is the proportion of the tenants decreed against who are unable to pay, and what proportion are able but unwilling to pay?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, that the ground on which he rested his statement was the notorious fact that members and leaders of the Land League for months past had striven in the strongest manner to induce tenants not to pay their rent, even when they were able to pay, and that a large number of tenants had notoriously followed that advice. The probability—in his mind the certainty—was that many of those processes for the recovery of rent were issued by the landlords of such 1837 tenants. The hon. Member had asked him what proportion of the tenants decreed against were able but unwilling to pay. He must say that the hon. Member and his Friends were better able to answer that Question than he was, because they might have means of knowing what number of tenants had followed their advice "to hold the harvest," as it was called, and not to pay what they termed an unjust rent, although they were able to pay. But he might suggest a mode by which to make the comparison. If the leaders of the Land League would so far assist in the maintainenance of law and order as to desist from advising the tenants not to pay, they would soon be in the position of having few ejectments brought under their notice except those against tenants who were really unable to pay. MR. PARNELL said, the right hon. Gentleman had made an important suggestion; and he wished to ask him whether, if the Land League gave the advice which the right hon. Gentleman suggested, he would undertake to protect from eviction the tenants who were unable to pay?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERreplied, that if the Government saw any probability or had any reason to believe that that advice would be really given, the whole question would be very much altered.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORThen the right hon. Gentleman declines to give a guarantee to protect tenants who really cannot pay?
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, he was quite prepared to give the advice suggested if the right hon. Gentleman would make that undertaking on his part. Afterwards,
§ MR. A. M. SULLIVANasked the First Lord of the Treasury if, between now and Monday, he would consider not only seriously, but in the kindly spirit with which he was certain to approach the subject, the incidental observations which passed within the last five minutes across the floor of the House? So happy an opportunity had not occurred for many years for terminating the grievous state of conflict which existed.
MR. GLADSTONEPerhaps the hon. and learned Member has addressed to me a request rather than a Question. At the same time, I should be very sorry, after observations which had passed in 1838 such a spirit, to seem to meet them with disrespect. I would say whatever concerns the condition of Ireland has undoubted claims on the attention, and the close and early attention, of Her Majesty's Government, and I shall be glad to receive any further information bearing on the subject of the matters which have been referred to.