§ MR. DILLWYNsaid, he desired to ask the Prime Minister some Questions of which he had given him private Notice. They were:—Firstly, Whether it was correct to say that the demand for "urgency" was partly made because the Government wished to preserve the time between Easter and Whitsuntide for legislation? Secondly, whether, if the Supplementary Estimates were not passed between the 24th and 31st March, the House would have no security that the law would be observed with regard to them? Thirdly, whether it was usual to postpone the first Votes of the Estimates? Fourthly, whether the original Estimates which were now followed by these Supplementary Estimates were framed by the present Government, or their Predecessors? Fifthly, and lastly, whether at the time of the Supplementary Budget of 1880, the Government were possessed of a trustworthy Estimate of the expenses of the Afghan War?
MR. GORSTI rise to Order, Sir. Is it not a Rule of the House that the Motion of "Urgency" shall be put without discussion or delay? If it is so, I wish to ask, whether it is not an inva- 918 sion of the Order of this House if the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Dillwyn) puts a Question to the Prime Minister which will enable the Prime Minister to state his reasons for the Motion of "Urgency" he is about to make?
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member for Swansea having risen in his place and put certain Questions to the Prime Minister on certain points, I am not in a position to interpose.
§ MR. RITCHIEWill the hon. Member for Swansea say at whose request he has put these Questions?
MR. GLADSTONEI will take care, Sir, to obviate the reasonable apprehension of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst), by confining myself in the strictest manner to matters of fact. It is not the case that the present demand for "urgency" is made, either wholly or partly, because the Government wish to reserve the time from Easter to Whitsuntide for legislation. It would be their duty to make the demand, if they had no wish on the subject of legislation, although we do desire to use some of the time in question for legislation. The change which we have made, which led to my reference to the subject, is that, in consequence of this desire, the Government have to ask for a Vote on Account for the Civil Service of 1881–2 for a longer period than we should otherwise have asked for it. I am asked, secondly, whether, if the Supplementary Estimates were passed on the 24th of March, the House would have any security that the law could be observed with regard to them, and I must say, in reply, that in the conviction of the Government the House can have no such security. I will not enter into details, which would be of a technical character; but I may be permitted to say, as a matter of fact, that during 20 years past the Votes for Supplementary Estimates have never been granted later than the 21st of March, and never but once so late as March 21—namely, in the year when the Government had very recently assumed Office. With regard to the third Question, I have to say that it is not usual to postpone the first Votes for the coming year, and the Ways and Means Act relating to them, until after the 31st of March. That Act has always been passed before March 31st, since the Exchequer and Audit Act was passed, and 919 the stricter Rules came into practice. As to the fourth Question, I have to say that the original Estimates, of which the Supplementary Estimates represent the consequent result, were framed by the late Government, and were presented anew by the present Government, with, I think, one or two changes in some matters of detail. With regard to the last Question, whether, at the time of the Supplementary Budget of 1880, the Government were possessed of a trustworthy estimate of the expense of the Afghan War, the matter stands thus:—On the 5th of February, 1880, those expenses were estimated by the Indian Government at £5,500,000. On the 4th of May, 1880, they were estimated at a sum which it was stated would be nearly £10,000,000, and on the 1st of June the Government received a telegram from the Viceroy of India stating that the expenses would largely exceed £10,000,000.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEI certainly do not rise, Sir, to attempt anything like a discussion; but I wish to put a Question upon one of the statements of the Prime Minister which is simply a matter of fact, upon which I do not think his answer was quite full. The right hon. Gentleman said he would not go into details as to the possibility of passing the Ways and Means Act on the 31st of March if the last Vote was taken in Supply on the 24th. I wish to ask him whether that is a correct statement as to what the course of Business might be if the last Vote was taken on the 24th? Assuming the last Vote to be taken on that day, and the Resolution in Ways and Means also taken on that day, would not the Supply Votes be reported on Friday, the 25th, and the Resolutions on Ways and Means be also reported on that day, and the Bill be brought in and read the first time? Would it not then be possible by sitting on Saturday—["Oh, oh!"]—well, I am suggesting it as a choice of evils—to read the Bill a second time? The Committee might then be taken on Monday, the 28th, the Bill be read a third time on the 29th, and be sent to the House of Lords and read a first time there; whether the House of Lords would not on the 30th pass the Bill through its remaining stage, so that it might receive the Royal Assent on Thursday, the 31st?
MR. GLADSTONESir, I will answer the Question of the right hon. Gentleman in detail. It is correct to say that we could take the stages mentioned on Thursday, the 24th, and Friday, the 25th. It is not, however, usual at this period of the year to sit on a Saturday, especially when Her Majesty's Cabinet were occupied in considering questions of peace and war of the utmost delicacy and anxiety, which are not of their seeking. No doubt, as regards the House, it is a matter of convenience or inconvenience; but the Government have to contemplate another state of things, in which the Ways and Means Bill might be made the subject of debate, occupying the day on Saturday; and certainly it would not be possible for Her Majesty's Government to discharge their duty at any meeting of the Cabinet that day. But, overlooking that, let us assume that the second reading of the Bill would take place on Saturday, the 26th. On Monday, the 28th, we might have the Committee on the Bill. On Tuesday, the 29th, we might have the third reading of the Bill; but the Government have no command of Tuesday, and we have no means of insuring that we should read the Bill a third time on Tuesday, the 29th, so as to send it to the House of Lords, that it may go through its first stage on that day. The next Question is, whether it should not be read a second time and passed through its remaining stages in the House of Lords on Wednesday, the 30th. Sir, I presume it might; but I know very well the practice of the House of Lords is not to sit on Wednesday. [Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: They sat to pass the Coercion Bill on a Wednesday.] At any rate, the Government have no right whatever to calculate upon any change being made in the practice of the House of Lords to suit the convenience of the House of Commons. ["Oh!"] The hon. Member who interrupts me will be pleased to allow me to finish my statement. We have no right whatever to calculate, and it would be most imprudent in us to calculate, on such changes in the practice of the House of Lords to meet the immediate difficulties which it might be said the House of Commons had the means of averting. But let me pass that over. The right hon. Gentleman then asks whether the Bill, having passed on the 30th, might not receive 921 the Royal Assent on the 31st? What I have to say in reply is, that if it did not receive the Royal Assent on the 31st, the law could not be fulfilled, and the necessary transactions and communications between the Government and the Departments and the Banks of England and Ireland could not be carried out. That is my answer; and I hope it will be considered sufficiently clear by the right hon. Gentleman.