§ (36.) £1,100, Temporary Commissions.
§ SIR HENRY HOLLANDnoticed, from the details, that there had been heavy expenditure in connection with the Commission relative to the War in South Africa Expenditure. Had the labours of the Commission now terminated?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, both of the officers sent out on that Commission had returned after making inquiries.
§ SIR HENRY HOLLANDasked if all the expenses had now closed?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHthought they had.
§ MR. RYLANDSsaid, perhaps the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) would tell the Committee whether the Government were taking action upon the Report of the Commission. He understood that a portion of the expenditure of the Transkei War had to be borne by the Cape, and he now desired to know whether the Imperial Government were receiving any considerable amount?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the Commission was sent out, not only to consider the apportionment of the expenditure, but to see there was no unnecessary waste. The Estimates made were most accurate, and the manner in which the work was done reflected credit upon everyone concerned. In reply to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), he had to say that the expenditure at the Cape during the last few mouths had been so large that it had not been thought desirable to press for any payment as yet. With respect to Natal, they had every reason to believe that as soon as the Colony raised the loan they now proposed to do, the Imperial Government would receive a considerable sum of money.
§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he only wished to bear his testimony to the extremely good service that was done by the gentlemen to whom reference had been made. The two War Office gentlemen were men of high 995 position in their own Office, and Mr. Gurdon, who went out from the Treasury, was sure to distinguish himself by his services. The duties which the Commission performed were of a very valuable character. There was no doubt the question might arise as to the claim made on the Colonies; but the Reports of the gentlemen sent out were valuable, because they showed what were the circumstances under which the claim might be made. That, however, was by no means the greatest part of the value of their services. They were able at once to settle the question, the discussion of which by the War Office and the Treasury and different Departments and Members of the Colonial Government would have led to the waste of many months, and possibly years. Mr. Gurdon, so far as the Treasury was concerned, was specially empowered to speak on behalf of the Treasury—to say what they were likely to allow and what they were not likely to allow, to say what charges ought to fall on the Imperial Treasury, and what charges ought to be borne by the Colonial Treasury; and from all he (Sir Stafford Northcote) saw of the work the Commission did, he was persuaded they did it thoroughly well, and that they very well deserved whatever the expenses of the Commission might have been. He hoped, no matter what might be said on the subject, full justice would be done to those gentlemen for work they did in a very difficult and irksome capacity, having everybody against them whenever they were at all economical, and having to go through physical labour, and even physical danger, in the cause of the Service.
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, of course, it would be remembered the present Government had nothing to do with the appointment of the gentlemen in question. It had, however, fallen to their lot to judge of the result of the Mission; and, speaking for the War Office, he was able to say that upon the Report presented they had been able to base arrangements which would have a highly economical character, and might enable the Department to satisfactorily settle the transactions which had recently occurred in South Africa. They had been able to put South African matters on a footing which would, at any rate, avoid delay and lead to considerable economy.
MR. DICK-PEDDIEsaid, the total amount required was £1,100, after deductions were made. It would be much more satisfactory to the Committee if the whole expenses of the South African Mission were specified. At present hon. Gentlemen were completely in the dark in this matter.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, they could not refuse the Vote after the very valuable testimony to the services of the Commission. He must, however, express his disappointment with regard to the debt due from the Cape Government. The debt was incurred, not on account of Her Majesty's troops, but on account of the expenses of the Colonial troops engaged in fighting their own battle. Because the Cape Government had, contrary to the wish of the Home Government, and contrary to the dictates of justice, chosen to enter into a fresh war, was no reason why the Cape Government should not be pressed for payment.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he would give the hon. Member (Mr. Dick-Peddie) exact particulars of the South African Commission at a later stage of the Estimates.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (37.) £350, Miscellaneous Expenses.
§ MR. PUGHsaid, he must ask for some information in respect to this Vote. The Committee would see there was considerable obscurity, both on the subject-matter and the details. They would see that the original Estimate for "fees on patents of creation" was £500, and that now an additional sum. of £350 was required, making, in all, £850. But then, when they got lower down, they found the
Excess of Expenditure over Grant for Fees to Heralds and others, in consequence of increased number of Patents of Creation issued from the Crown Office in Chancerywas £1,305. It appeared from this that £500 was not the original Estimate. There was a considerable disparity in the figures, and he would be glad to know who were created, what they were created, and what was the cost of the respective creations?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, upon all these creations there were certain stamps to be paid for, and certain persons were entitled to a portion of the fees. Last year there were a considerable number of creations by the late 997 Government, and that might account for the amount of the Vote.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he was not satisfied with the explanation of the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish). He desired to know if they were really called upon to pay out, of the taxation of the country the expenses connected with the making of Peers?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the stamps were paid into the Exchequer.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
(38.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,585, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, for the repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund of certain Miscellaneous Advances.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, as a matter of curiosity, he would like to have an explanation of the item of £24 3s. for the "Temporary Seal for the Transvaal Government." What was the meaning of the word "temporary?" Were they to infer that there was a permanent Seal as well?
§ MR. CAINEasked for some information respecting the item of £572 8s. 10d. which he saw was put down in the Estimate as the "expenses connected with the conveyance to England of the body of the late Prince Imperial." He would like to know why the country was called upon to pay these expenses?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, in respect to the temporary Seal for the Transvaal Government, he thought he might assume that the Seal was ordered when the Colony was annexed. He imagined the word "temporary" was employed in the hope that the Colony would repay the cost subsequently. With regard to the expenses connected with the conveyance of the Prince Imperial's body to this country, it was thought right to incur these expenses inasmuch as the Prince died in the service of the country.
MR. GORSTwished to ask another question in reference to the Seal for the Transvaal Government. How came an item of the kind in this Estimate at all? It was a very small amount; but, small as it was, ought it not to have appeared in the accounts of the Transvaal Government?
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, at the time the Transvaal Government was appointed, £120,000 was voted by this House for the necessary expenses. It was an extremely prudent thing to provide a a temporary Seal only; but it ought to have been paid for out of the grant made by Parliament.
§ MR. BROADHURSTsaid, there was a curious entry under this Vote. It read thus:—
Representatives of the late J. Gibson, Q.C., as Chairman of Quarter Sessions, County Donegal, in respect of a Pension which would have been granted to that Gentleman, and charged on the Consolidated Fund, had he not died before the necessary formalities were carried out.And the item was £178 0s. 7d. He would like to know whether it was the custom to give money to the relatives of those who would have been entitled to pensions had they lived long enough?
§ MR. CAINEunderstood from the reply of the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) that the Prince Imperial was in the service of this country. He was under the impression that the Prince went out as Volunteer.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the Prince Imperial was acting as a Volunteer, but fighting in our service. He was sorry he could not give the circumstances connected with the grant to the representatives of the late Mr. Gibson. He believed that gentleman died whilst the formalities were being determined; and, therefore, this item could not be charged against the Superannuation Vote.
§ MR. LITTONdid not think any hon. Member of the House would object to the sum charged for the conveyance of The Prince Imperial's body to this country. That illustrious young gentleman occupied a very noble position, and he met an unfortunate death while engaged as a Volunteer in the late Zulu War. It would, indeed, be very ungracious to challenge the item. There was, however, a matter upon which he would like some explanation; it was with respect to the payment of two Treasury Chest Bills which had been cancelled, and the amount—£200—paid to the Exchequer. As to the grant to the representatives of the late Mr. Gibson, the only question he would raise was as to whether Mr. Gibson had not, prior to his death, tendered his resignation, because he (Mr. Litton) could well 999 understand that the representatives would be fairly entitled to the grant if that were so. On the other hand, if Mr. Gibson had not resigned, it would seem unreasonable to make the grant.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, that, although the Mr. Gibson in question was no relative of his, he knew the facts very well. The late Government were in power, and Mr. Gibson died a short time after he sent in his resignation, and, he assumed, before the formalities connected with the carrying out of the pension were completed. The personal representatives were, of course, entitled to be paid the sum as if the necessary formalities had been completed.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORexpressed a desire to ask the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury two or three questions, because he always felt very suspicions when a Vote for contingencies was asked for. In the first place, he wanted to know whose distinguished conveyance had cost £1,312? He desired information, too, as to the meaning of the sum of £2,769 as Equipage Money on the appointment of Earl Cowper as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. With regard to the conveyance of the body of the late Prince Imperial to this country he was not prepared to make any Motion; but if some hon. Gentleman opposite would put the item to the test of a division he would certainly follow him into the Lobby. He was afraid, however, he would have to divide the Committee upon the points he had raised, if the explanations were not satisfactory.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he had to inform the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Litton) that the two Treasury Chest Bills he had mentioned were two bills drawn by the Treasury Chest in 1873, but which were not presented for payment until 1880. Owing to the lapse of six years, it was expected the bills would never become due. The special packets for conveyance of distinguished persons were packets provided for Members of the Royal Family. As to the Lord Lieutenant's Equipage Money, he had to state that the matter was inquired into by a Select Committee in 1831. That Committee reported that they were unable to recommend any reduction in the salary of the Lord Lieutenant, and also that equipage money should be allowed. It was quite evident anyone 1000 occupying such a position as Earl Cowper must be put to a very large expense.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORwould like to be informed who were the Royal and distinguished persons for whose conveyance special packets were employed; what were the occasions on which the packets were employed; and whether the distinguished persons were being conveyed on their own personal pleasure, or in the public service?
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHreplied that it had always been the custom, when any of the Royal Family went to the Continent, to provide special packets for them.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he would move the omission of the item of £1,312 for special packets.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,273, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, for the repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund of certain Miscellaneous Advauces."—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.