HC Deb 23 June 1881 vol 262 cc1111-4
BARON HENRY DE WORMS

Before I put the Question which stands in my name, I must ask the indulgence of the House to make an explanation in justification of the course which I took in not presenting a Petition to this House.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I rise to Order. I beg to ask whether the hon. Member is entitled to make any such explanation in putting his Question?

MR. SPEAKER

I cannot say whether or not the hon. Member is out of Order until I hear what he has to say.

BARON HENRY DE WORMS

I was going to say, when the hon. Member for Northampton interrupted me, that I wished to make an explanation in justification of the course I took in refusing to present a Petition on the ground of illegality, and to read a few words from a letter I have received to-day from the Association from which the Petition emanated. My ground was that the House had been treated disrespectfully by the allegation of illegality contained in that Petition. The words of the letter are as follows:—" In the first place, we not only impute that the House has acted illegally, but we affirm it." I therefore beg to ask the Chairman of the Committee on Public Petitions, Whether any Petitions in favour of the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh have been submitted to that Committee, and subsequently printed in the Report, in which the prayer of the Petition is expressed in these words— Your Petitioners therefore pray that your honourable House will cause the Law to be obeyed and justice to be done, or that it will forthwith allow Mr. Bradlaugh to take his seat on his making a solemn affirmation; whether such words are held by the Committee to be disrespectful to the House; and, whether, in view of Mr. Speaker's recent ruling, the Chairman of the Committee on Public Petitions would submit such Petitions to the House for its consideration and decision?

MR. LABOUCHERE

Sir, perhaps my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee on Public Petitions will be good enough to say whether that Committee is aware that by a Statute of Richard II.—which has never been repealed—Mr. Bradlaugh is liable to fine and imprisonment for not taking part in the deliberations of this House after having been duly elected; and whether, considering this, together with the declarations of the Law Officers of the Crown, and the Prime Minister, and of many other learned Members of the House that he has a legal right derived from his election to take his seat, and that he cannot be deprived of this legal right by the Resolution of one branch of the Legislature, the prayer of the Petition that the House will cause the law to be obeyed, can be regarded as disrespectful? ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is putting a Question which does not at all arise out of the Question of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Baron Henry de Worms). It does not appear to me to refer to the same matter—that is to say, to a Petition which the hon. Member did not think proper to present to this House.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I think this will answer your objection, Sir. I wish to ask whether, under these circumstances, the Petition which the hon. Member presented—or rather did not present—asking that the House should cause the law to be obeyed and justice to be done, can be regarded as disrespectful, except upon the impossible assumption that this House does not wish the law to be obeyed or justice to be done?

SIR CHARLES FORSTER

At such short Notice, I cannot be expected to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton into his historical researches; but perhaps the general reply which I shall give to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich (Baron Henry de Worms) will answer his purpose. It is true that Petitions have been submitted to the Committee over which I preside in which the words referred to appeared, and I may state that the majority of the Committee determined that these words are not disrespectful to the House. It is, however, only right that I should say that there were hon. Members in the Committee who took a different view. With regard to the last Question, I think the hon. Member labours under a misapprehension. I do not understand you, Sir, to make any ruling on the subject of these Petitions, but simply to state that the hon. Member, taking the view he did, was perfectly justified in refusing.to present the Petition. But it is one thing for an hon. Member to refuse to present a Petition on the ground of disrespect to the House, and another thing to call on the House to reject the Petition. It would be a matter of regret if these Petitions, which are 168 in number, and contain 3,000 signatures, were rejected on the assumed ground of want of respect, which, after all, is imaginary. For myself, I have always held that the House should not press too far the doctrine of privilege; and though I never would pass any Petition which insults the House, or is wanting in respect, yet in doubtful cases I have always inclined to give my vote for the acceptance of the Petition. This question has already been twice considered, and I am not disposed to take any further action in the matter.

MR. ONSLOW

I should like to ask the Chairman of the Committee how many Members of the Committee were present when this matter was discussed? [Cries of "Oh !" and "Notice !"]

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

With reference to the language which has been used in the letter from which an extract has been read by my hon. Friend, the Member for Greenwich, I would ask you, Sir, whether, in your opinion, after that construction has been put by some of the petitioners upon the language of the Petition, it would be right that Petitions of that character should, for the future, be received?

MR. SPEAKER

The Question of the right hon. Gentleman is a Question for the consideration of the House rather than for me, and I must leave it for the judgment of the House.

MR. ONSLOW

I really must press my Question; or, I will give the hon. Baronet Notice.

SIR CHARLES FORSTER

I should be very glad to give the hon. Member for Guildford the information he asks for if I could, but I have no data before me. If, however, the hon. Member will give Notice of his Question, I shall be very happy to answer it.

MR. LOWTHER

I think I can give the information. I believe there were only eight Members of the Committee present when the Petition was discussed.